simple Hi-Tek coating

[TonyN]

Mix 20gms to 150mls for first coat. Still use 6mls per 2.5kg of alloy


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If I still do 2 coats it's not going to fully cover the 44 Keith Style bullet tho. If I do 2 coats of 20 grams 100 no acetone then 3rd coat the 150 ml acetone and 20 grams powder it would be safe wouldn't it? I seem to get a lot more chipping if I do 3 coats of the 20 grams 100 ml acetone. I'm wondering what the commercial casters do to totally cover the SWC bullets.

[Ausglock]

Tony. I do the 200gn SWC 45 bullets with 2 coats at 20gms to 100mls. There is a bit of bare lead at the junction of the shoulder.
But....If it doesn't touch the bore, I don't care if it isn't coated.

So.. have you figured out what you were doing wrong with your process?
No good worrying about SWC coverage if they are still not coated correctly.
Bit like the cart before the horse.......

[TonyN]

I used sulfur to fix the problem. They are working properly now.

[Echd]

Lee "Modern Minie" .50 boolits, 3 coats:



NEI spire point 50 boolits, GC'd, 3 coats:



Mihec 125-2R No grooves, 2 coats:



Looking forward especially to light 500 loads with the Lee minie. It weighs in around 350 gr. The spire point is slightly over 400, averaged around 403.

[HI-TEK]

I used sulfur to fix the problem. They are working properly now.

TonyN,
I am puzzled.
You asked for advice, how to clean your contaminated alloy.
Others as well as I, supplied you an option to clean out Zinc and other "reactive" metals from your contaminated alloy, and suggested using Copper Sulphate.
You then replied, and was questioning fumes and or toxicity aspects when using Copper Sulphate.
From what I can tell from lack of adequate responses from you about the Copper Sulphate advice, you instead opted to use Sulphur, which produces a nasty toxic, corrosive, choking gaseous product.
I note, that you did not mention nor raise any toxicity or irritating fumes questions before, or after you used Sulphur as cleaning agent.
I know you say that Sulphur worked, but when you compare Copper Sulphate, and Sulphur, I know which I would use in preference, and it is definitely not Sulphur.
I can understand why some folk are becoming reluctant to supply advice, as advice provided, seems to be simply ignored and not even tried.
Apology for my "pointy" comment, but that is how I feel about things.

[TonyN]

I used sulfur to fix the problem. They are working properly now.

I'm on a tight budget so I was reading about sulfur so I did the cheaper option.

[HI-TEK]

I used sulfur to fix the problem. They are working properly now.

I'm on a tight budget so I was reading about sulfur so I did the cheaper option.

TonyN

I understand a budget as reason for you using Sulphur, rand I can accept is as being valid basis.
So, from what can be deduced from your current advice is, that your diversion questions, about toxicity of using Copper Sulphate, was really not the reason why you did not use it.
I initially assumed, that you had real health concern issues, with using materials that may be not good for your health, (not that Copper Sulphate use was a problem).
However, my assuming things about your alleged health concerns with Copper Sulphate toxicity matters, was totally incorrect.
From your advice, now it seems with your reply, that you had no such health concerns/reservations in using toxic materials to clean your alloy.

[Avenger442]

Joe
Since you have broached that subject of health concern and copper sulfate again, do you know of any? Because some on this forum are using it for enrichment of alloy with copper, was just wondering if there might be something we should be concerned with. Most of us do not have the luxury of a fume hood to work with. When it comes to noxious vapors we just take it outside.

Your working with chemicals and in a lab is an invaluable resource here. Is your education in chemistry?

Hi Tek loaded and ready for the range again.

Attachment 188901 Going to mount this scavenged scope, off an old Remington hunting rifle I'm selling, onto the Marlin to see if I can get better groups. For me, the performance of Hi Tek has been very good. But sometimes my eyes and hands with iron sights do not perform that well.

Both photos loaded upside down again. Can't ever seem to get that straight.

[TonyN]

I used sulfur to fix the problem. They are working properly now.

I'm on a tight budget so I was reading about sulfur so I did the chea
per option.

No Sir. I didn't want to pay 15. On something if I can pay 5.00 on another product that will clean the material. Its amazing how much better the material works.

[Grmps]

Joe is a Chemical engineer and an Industrial Chemist.

I also am interested in health concerns with Copper Sulphate and the best / safest way to alloy copper with lead.

[HI-TEK]

Joe is a Chemical engineer and an Industrial Chemist.

I also am interested in health concerns with Copper Sulphate and the best / safest way to alloy copper with lead.

Copper Sulphate,
This stuff has been used as a fungicide on fruit trees and Grapes, and to kill invading roots of plants in sewer pipes.
It is sold in many hardware stores, agricultural supplies, under various names such as Blue Stone and Copper Sulphate and is corrosive towards many metals.
Attached is the safety data sheet.
In applications for cleaning Lead, as long as temperatures are kept below decomposition of Copper Sulphate, (according to MSDS), around 400C, the reaction is a simple metal exchange process with little or no volatile gasses until you exceed 400C.
Say Zinc is the target metal to remove, the Zinc is exchanged to deposit Copper, and Zinc is then locked into a salt Zinc Sulphate which forms powder scum on surface of Lead. The deposited Copper tends to mix into the Molten Lead, but some will remain with scum on surface.
Reaction mode;
Zn + CuSO4= Cu (metal) + ZnSO4 This reaction is easily demonstrated with a water solution of the Copper Sulphate and immersing a steel nail into the water, there is an immediate reaction of Steel replacing Copper from solution which is visible. Same reaction with Zinc and other active metals.
With using Sulphur, this stuff ignites easily and burns to produce large volumes of Sulphur Dioxide. This gas is a choking corrosive gas. The mode of reaction with base metals such as Zinc will depend on ability of the Sulphur or its Oxide, to become in contact with the Zinc metal. As Sulphur is volatile, a great deal is lost as sublimation, and acidic gas formation when ignited.
As comparison, I prefer the Copper Sulphate method, as there is a direct one to one exchange of metals as per reaction mode above. Whilst there is Copper Sulphate present, it continues to exchange with other undesirable reactive metals. With Sulphur, there is a lot that is lost due to its property. I am not saying that it does not work, but am sceptical about its efficiency versus costs, and my way of thinking, I don't like the acidic fumes that are generated.
[ATTACH]188922 ATTACH]188926

[Avenger442]

Thanks Joe for the info.

So it looks like from reading the MSDS that copper sulfate is relatively safe until it is heated above 750 F. I don't have a thermometer on my smelting operation so will probably use the Lee pot with the PID to help keep it safe. And, will do outside because of the wife with atomic sense of smell. She can smell the smallest things. Things I don't even notice. I guess I worked too many years around construction jobs. There is always some smell to ignore on the job.

Got about 10 lbs of bullets to coat next week while it's raining. Haven't decided on the color yet but will probably be the Black 1035. That's already mixed and ready to go. These are hollow points for the 45-70. Will post photo later. Probably upside down. They all are lately.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Avenger442;3963532]Thanks Joe for the info.

So it looks like from reading the MSDS that copper sulfate is relatively safe until it is heated above 750 F. I don't have a thermometer on my smelting operation so will probably use the Lee pot with the PID to help keep it safe. And, will do outside because of the wife with atomic sense of smell. She can smell the smallest things. Things I don't even notice. I guess I worked too many years around construction jobs. There is always some smell to ignore on the job.


As I have tried to indicate in my previous blogs also, it all boils down on peoples perceptions of what works and what does not. Sulphur does work. Efficiency ??? is questionable. Hazards is high, costs over all, is questionable with efficiency being experienced..

What has annoyed me is, that when many had provided advice, after user, had allegedly months of coating failures, without disclosing that he had contaminated Lead, the costs associated with having to cast, coat & bake, and repeat these failure processes over and over and over, re- smelting the failures, plus associated labour costs had never been considered at all.
Then, to use another Lead treatment method, to save a few bucks, and generate toxic fumes, I could not understand that rationale.
Further, it was insinuated that Copper Sulphate was toxic. Then, using Sulphur as alternative was decided being a better choice, simply based on cost saving on initial purchase price differences between Sulphur and Copper Sulphate. Whilst there is Copper Sulphate present on surface of molten alloy, it will continue to scavenge unwanted metals. Sulphur would not do that, as it would boil away/evaporate, or catch fire and be wasted, well before it had done its job.

With Copper Sulphate, there should be no fume emissions until the stuff is heated to destruction temperatures above 400C.
Even if those temperatures are reached, the fumes generated from Copper Sulphate, would be significantly lower, (probably 60-70% less) that was being produced by Sulphur at much lower temperatures.

Talk about working in Industry, I used to work at a company, where Tonnes of Sulphur was burned daily, to produce anhydrous Sulphuric Acid gas, SO3..
The process was very well contained with strict emission controls being in place. I could not imagine what would have happened if the tons of molten Sulphur caught fire. There would have to be a whole town evacuation. I was working within 30 yards from plant, and if it went off, I would not be here..

[Warhead]

People are amazing, in all sorts of ways is all I have to say about that, coming from someone that works at a range.

Anyway just wanted to let ya'll know that the 375 H&H project it giving me a hard time, it will shoot two or three bullets into a nice 2-3 inch group at 100 yrds, then throw a flier 5-6 inchs out of the group, I even went as far thinking it was me as to let 3 other people that are known good shooters have at it with the gun and same thing resulted. Next I tried a different powder, I switched to IMR 8208XBR, and was still getting the same results. But one that I have to say has been just incredible is, with 8208, and the Hi-Tek at 2500 fps, after 50 rounds you look down the barrel, and swear it hasn't been fired, its is that clean!

I am thinking now it is something with that way I am casting the bullets. Next thing is when I cast more bullets, I am going to weigh each bullet, and segregate by wight to see if that helps, but if any of you have any suggestions I am all ears!

Also 'nother plug for K15 black that stuff is by far the easiest of all the colors to use, and is slick as could be when run though the sizer!

[Gremlin460]

last time i had a similar issue WarHead was a sizing problem verses bore size, I was sizing at 356 , I changed to 358 after slugging the bore and the groups tightened and the flyers disapeared apart from the ones I caused.

[dikman]

Avenger, that is very thoughtful of you, thinking of us Aussies when posting photos, but honestly, you don't have to post them upside down just for us.

[Grmps]

Cheers Joe,

I read somewhere that the copper would replace the zinc first then tin and finally antimony. Is this true?
What percentage of copper can you achieve before it quits alloying.
How long would it take to alloy a 20 pound batch and approximately how much copper sulfate would it take?
can you control the amount of copper alloyed by the amount of zinc / tin in the lead , lets say I used pure lead and added 5 % zinc. would the solution keep accepting/alloying the copper sulfate until I had 5% copper?

due to the yellow base of Hi-Tek is it possible /have you tried bright pink (for the ladies) or bright yellow or is that a chemical impossibility.

warhead, +1 on segregating bullets by weight and slugging the bore. I would also look into double checking the powder charge for each load.

[Ausglock]

There is a Yellow. But gold 1035 is better

[HI-TEK]

Cheers Joe,

I read somewhere that the copper would replace the zinc first then tin and finally antimony. Is this true
Yes it is true. In terms of reactivity, and it greatly depends on atomic table of elements, where each metal is placed in respect to reactivity. Zinc being more reactive and will be removed in preference to Tin and Antimony. Once Zinc is gone, then the Copper sulphate will start on Tin in preference, but it will also start to remove Antimony at reduced rate.

What percentage of copper can you achieve before it quits alloying.
If you have a lot of Zinc, The Copper Sulphate will keep on working until it is all gone. Gross contamination will also make Copper Sulphate not economical to use.The problem is, that if you have a gross contamination with Zinc, high temperature furnacing is used to burn off Zinc to form Zinc Oxide, which is skimmed off. Home hobbyists should not ever do this. It requires very high temperatures and as a result you get strong Lead vapours form as well.

How long would it take to alloy a 20 pound batch and approximately how much copper sulfate would it take?
Usage rate of Copper Sulphate will depend on just how much Zinc is present. If you don't know how much Zinc you have, it is very difficult to guess how much Copper Sulphate is required. You simply add some, mix and see colour change. When change is complete, add a little more, mix and observe. When colour change is not so apparent, you can try to cast a few, and examine after casting with hardness and appearance of cast.

can you control the amount of copper alloyed by the amount of zinc / tin in the lead , lets say I used pure lead and added 5 % zinc. would the solution keep accepting/alloying the copper sulfate until I had 5% copper
In theory it is correct, but I do not know solubility of precipitated Copper in molten alloy. A lot may depend on how well you mix during reaction so the Copper is in contact with molten alloy at maximum time. Again in theory, due to the fine nature of produced Copper it does help with surface area solubilising aspects into the alloy.

due to the yellow base of Hi-Tek is it possible /have you tried bright pink (for the ladies) or bright yellow or is that a chemical impossibility.
I have made a Bright Yellow, but it turned to a Desert sand colour. Pink, is out of the question, as none are stable. The Closest is Red 122.

warhead, +1 on segregating bullets by weight and slugging the bore. I would also look into double checking the powder charge for each load.

I am wondering if Gunoil can shed some light on this subject. Here is Aus, we don't have much with use in Rifles, and, I have limited feed back due to commercial casters directly dealing with end use customers. I don't get back much information at all.

[eljefeoz]

Newb Hiteker checking in.
got the Bronze 502 from Joe last week.
seems like inspite of reading / printing out relevant posts and memorising the instructions, many variables do creep in
first few 286 grain PB for my 9.3x62 ended up very dark brown. As did the Lee 155 gr 0.312 for the 7.62x39.
passed the smash test.
am now down to 1ml per handful of projjies and a 20 sec shake.
6 min at 180*C ( in my 10 buck GUMTREE toaster oven ) open, pull out tray, shake and mix, close door and 6 min more gave a a beautiful batch of 400 gr Lee Cb for a mate's 45-70.
For good measure we cooled them down, coated and repeated 2 more cycles.
ended looking almost like the old copper jacketed SN I have childhood memories of, in the red and yellow Kynoch cartons.

Thanks Fellas, it works.

Am not going to build a PID ( I have made and used RTD's in my younger days )but I think I now know the solution mix, dwell time and my equipment- I need 180*c in MY oven.
Pics when I figure out how to retrieve The photo bucket account.

Test st firing hopefully next weekend.
i hope to do up some .425" 400 grainers for my .404 too.