38-55 education

[bigted]

ok so i RE-LEARNED something today.

been thinkin bout the why and how of blackpowder in my 38-55 marlin '93'. bugs me to not be able to install 55 grains powder in this spiffy case ... dont ask me why but it does.

so after some contemplation on my past experience where i can not get more then 46 grains 2F GOEX in there and compress to seat my favorite 275 grain .380 boolit ... that is without bulging the ww case. i set about trying something i heard about a couple years ago. i may have tryed this before but didnt scribble it down in my shooting log so ... it never happened ...

so i gave it a try today in a couple ways. first i loaded 18.33 grains then compressed it around .220 inch ... then another 18.33 grains and compress another .220 inch ... then the final 18.33 grains and compressed this to a total compression from the mouth where the crimp groove will have to be which is .630 inch. loading this way i was capable of getting my desired 55 grains in the case without any bulge in the walls. doing all this in an unsized case. the cases are 2.070 inch long and the boolit loaded looks like it outta.

the other process is that i took 27.5 grains and compressed it .330 inch followed with another 27.5 grains and compressed the total of .630 from the case mouth for room to load the boolit. this put a small bulge on the wall and i had to size the loaded case after the boolit was seated in order to chamber it.

i loaded 2 in the first fashion and 2 in the later fashion. take em out in my yard to shoot em and let go with ... as far as im concerned ... my first 55 grain loads of GOEX cartridge powder. my next experiment will be to try to get 55 grains of 2F GOEX in there and be able to seat my boolit. but for now im jazzed with another very cool by product that this amount of powder exhibits ... that is the cleanliness of the fouling. i fired 4 of these pills and when i went to clean the barrel it came clean very rapidly. also the fouling seemed very soft with the nice lube star on the end of my 26 inch barrel. now this has been no accuracy test but i am very encouraged with the cleanliness aspect of these heavier powder loadings and the reaction of the lube on the boolits doing so well in the barrel for repeat shots in a hunting rifle. and the load is such that i didnt put any kinda wad or card between the powder and the boolit.

just loaded 55 grains powder and compressed enough to seat my lubed boolit to the crimp groove. sparked by a rem 9.5 large rifle primer. hummers ran so well that im gonna re try em and see if they will repeat in the performance dept. no wads nor card wads ... just powder n boolit.

just thought id report a fun experiment as it has been awhile since i did anything with my rifles ... been shooting my C&B revolvers to much fun and entertainment. ...

[pworley1]

That is what is really so great about casting and loading. There is no limit to what we can do for enjoyment.

[2Tite]

Please keep us posted on this........I'm very interested. There are several 38's here and I'm just getting started on them with black powder.

[Boz330]

Ted,
I tried that method in my 40-65 and while I got clean burns the accuracy was abysmal YMMV.
I did manage to get 55gr in mine with a lot of compression but it was with Swiss. It was also a 250gr boolit. Best accuracy was with 47gr though.
You have to remember that those original loads were with balloon head cases that hold more powder and the original boolit was 240 to 250gr.
Be careful running that loaded round into a size die, you can size the boolit down as well and it might not bump up enough in a light weight like that.

Bob

[bigted]

thanks for the advise. i did manage to cram in 55 grains 2F as well. they were clean like the first ones but still have to shoot em for accuracy. i really like the thump tho and the sound is more like a big bore then this bitty 38.

only reason i sized the bulged case was to continue the experiment to find out how the 55 grain loads would act. i would never shoot these in a accuracy test for the exact reason you stated ... no way to determine if the boolit had been sized in the removing of the bulge.

means nothing except for an experiment to fill the daz till breakup happens. just a winter sumptin to do that can be accomplished here in the yard to pass the time away. what a weird and strange winter huh? hard to tell what is going to happen next. been rainin here in January ... slicker then heck and snow all slid off the roof. what a deal. every winter is different but golly ... this one takes the cake for sure.

[Boz330]

Down here they have been talking about it being colder than Anchorage on the news. Below 0 weather wasn't all that uncommon back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. It didn't last all that long but we did have it. The last 25 years though it has been real unusual. We get bitter weather just in time for energy prices to to spike.

Bob

[bigted]

i heard that !!! the weather goes in cycles and i recon ...[contrary to popular talk]... it is just cycling thru its patterns. old timers tell of this happening long ago and weird as it is ... it will blow thru and the next cycle will continue and then there will be talk about what is causing it. dinks cant just see ma nature is in control after all. we are just along for the ride and our responsibility is to learn how to get along with MA NATURE instead of trying to continually change or try to change or better yet ... try to explain the why of stuff. HA nature will have her way no matter what folks try to do about it. the harder they try the more devastation will be seen ... take those folks that insist on building their home against a mud slide and insist it will never slide again ... or better yet ... those that build homes on the river bank and swear that it will never flood again.

foolishness for sure huh? think ill just load some more blackpowder and shoot the bank here in the yard for awhile. maybe i can change the weather patterns with my extra heat and smoke.

[Boz330]

Got experience with those flood things. When I built the house I live in now on the same farm I moved it up on the hill. If the water gets in there, we all going to be in trouble.
Good luck with that heat and smoke thing! January's match I couldn't get enough heat out of my barrel to warm my hands. In the summer I need a rag to hold it for cleaning.

Bob

[bigted]

peculiar thing what with my speriments ... been tryen the remington 9 1/2 primers in my marlins and every once inna while i get a dimple in the primer and no bang. haven't had this misfire problem for tons of years. cant even remember what the problem was with my misfires so many years ago. know it weren't the rifles tho.

any body else havin any failures with the remington 9 1/2 primers? my cci's never give me any fits at all ... the federal have never given me pause either. tryed winchesters awhile back and the reason i dont continue with them is that i cant find em here.

i like the gold color of the remington's but they sure dont perform for me. my rolling block also has seen some failures with them as well. NONE of these weapons have ever given a hint of failure before and i shoot the same loads as with the cci's and fed's and never a problem soooo ... just sayin.

[Dryball]

Forgive my ignorance but how are you measuring your powder, by volume or weight? I'd love to use my Lyman 55 but what is the ratio between weight and volume with you BP?

[w30wcf]

bigted,
The -55 was the capacity load of the original cartridge as it was used in Schuetzen rifles. The bullet was preseated into the bore, then the cartridge, containing 55 grs of b.p. with a paper disc seated in the case mouth to hold the powder in place, was chambered.

The original b.p. load for the .38-55 self contained cartridge was 48 grs. according to the early Winchester catalogs.

Interesting experiment though.....

w30wcf

[kootne]

w30wcf, you are right on all counts.

Dryball, weight/volume ratio is going to vary with different powders, even different lots. Black powder varies in density. Best place to start loading with black is to use a volume to bring powder to the base of the bullet. More can gotten in by "drop tubing". Even more by compressing (and evidently even more by multi-stage compressing). Less than a full case (reduced load) usually works best with with a cream of wheat filler to bring the density up to at least 100%. Otherwise the fouling often gets excessive.

Bigted, very interesting concept. Thanks

kootne

[Doc Highwall]

bigted, make sure the insides of your cases are nice and clean when you use that much compression so as not to have the case separate from being able to grab the inside of a rough case.

[kootne]

That is a good point to bring up, Doc. Somewhere I have an old reference on cartidge manufacuring from the 1870's and at that time they were laquer coating the inside of the case at manufacture to prevent compressed loads from sizing to the case walls over time and causing seperations.
I use a spiral wound stainless steel bore brush in a cordless drill to clean mine (done wet). That really slicks them up fast.
kootne

[bigted]

ok see if i can cover everybody;

dont do the volume thing ... i weigh each charge even tho i have heard of the negligible gain ... i feel more comfy weighing each charge. as for the difference between a weighed charge and the volume thing ... it all depends on what volume vehicle you use as they all seem to be a bit different manufacturer to manufacturer.

i had heard ...[probably from you]... that the "55" came into play exactly that way ... bore seating the boolit and shoving a case in behind the boolit containing the 55 grains powder and a card. just wanted to find out if it would be possible and it is ... what a pain tho as if ya dont do the compression rite ... the case will bulge and then all is lost. however if a feller used a lite boolit ... say a 200 or maybe a 220 grain boolit that dont stick into the case so far ... or a bore wrapped patched boolit that would extend into the barrel enough to be seated "long" then i figure that would enhance the success of this experiment.

thanks for the warning doc ... i have heard about this happening before as well and i also do the brush thing before loading the cases. i am also very careful to check my barrel if i "feel " or "hear" something different. i do NOT want to ruin my pretty face nor do damage to a perfectly good rifle ...[maybe i got that backwards]...

[kootne]

bigted,
Here is another thought about your bulged case issue. Modify a FL die (replace decapping pin/stem with compression stem) to do your compression in. Then those forces bulging the brass out are contained right where they need to be. Might save a step in the process.

I'm sure you know by heavily compressing that pressures are going to go above what is "normal" for black. I'm not familar with that model of Marlin but must be OK for smokeless aren't they?

Bubba says you can keep adding powder till it blows up the gun, then back off one grain.
kootne

[MikeT]

ok see if i can cover everybody;
i had heard ...[probably from you]... that the "55" came into play exactly that way ... bore seating the boolit and shoving a case in behind the boolit containing the 55 grains powder and a card....

bigted,

I shoot 56 grains of Swiss 1.5 behind a 340 grain PP bullet. Minimum compression required.
This COAL would be a bit too much for a lever gun.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

[rbertalotto]

The original 38-55 was a balloon head case wasn't it? And the BP of the day was less dense I've been told....And I believe the bullet was 250g............

[kootne]

The original 38-55 was a balloon head case wasn't it? And the BP of the day was less dense I've been told....And I believe the bullet was 250g............

Actually, Marlin developed the 38/55 for their Ballard rifles. I don't think Marlin was using balloon head cases by the time the 38/55 came out. One of their claims to fame was "Everlasting" cases which were solid head. Other companies subsequently made them in balloon head but the ones marketed by Marlin I'm pretty sure were just about the same as cases made today.
kootne