North-South Skirmish, PRB, and a 1:66 twist

[7of7]

I picked up a 54 cal Hawken, thinking it had a 1:48 twist barrel. I also purchased a RCBS North-South Skirmish minnie mold, (adjustable weight) because I would rather use the conicals because they are a bit heavier for hunting Elk. (that, is the background)
I started off using 70 grains of FFF, with a PRB, and @ 100 yds, all was good.. used the minnie, and it was all over the place. Not even on the paper. I did see where one of the minnies hit the target support board,.. sideways.. left a nice profile in the board. I checked the twist rate and found the barrel was a 1:66..
So, I started looking at spin rate for stabilization, and ended up increasing the charge to 95 grains, which gave me nice paper punch type holes @ 50 yards.. accuracy is still not as good as PRB.

Fouronesix gave me this advice on the Lets Talk About Twist thread:
"That gun should shoot the minie you have but the 95 gr FFF seems way too hot. Near pure lead and about a 50-55 gr load of BP should work. Another thing overlooked by bare conical/minie shooters is the potential for leading in the bore. Make sure there is no leading in the bore.

If it shoots PRB accurately then the barrel/bore should be good. I've noticed the definition of accuracy by different shooters is different. That rifle should be able to shoot PRB into 1-1 1/2" at 50 yards from a good rest, good sights and good technique with the right load. If it does that then the barrel/bore is good. If you are using battlefield techniques and methods with the minie it may not shoot no matter the load. Those old "conventional wisdom" methods called for a minie that was quite a bit smaller than bore diameter--- using the undersized minie for ease and speed of loading a badly fouled bore on the battlefield-- accuracy was not the priority. I've found over and over and over! that if the minie is of good design and cast without voids of near pure lead and is sized no smaller than bore diameter it will shoot well in the 54 and 58 calls with twists ranging from 1:48 to 1:78+. It may require cleaning/swabbing more often, but when the outcome calls for accuracy not speed loading, that is what usually works. "

The minnie cast, is from near pure lead, measure .540, and provide slight resistance on a clean bore when loading. With 95 grains, the first shot, goes somewhere.. doesn't hit paper @ 50 yards, subsequent shots, are on paper, and cut nice clean paper punch type holes, no tearing.. PRB, with the same 95 grains, gives very good accuracy, @ 50 yds.
So, I will be trying the 50 -55 grain load, and will report back. I do appreciate the advice of the more seasoned black powder shooters here.

[bob208]

too much powder for the minnie. the army load was in the 1-72 barrel was 60 gr. of 2f.

[waksupi]

My suggestion is to stick with patched round balls. The elongated projectiles were developed for combat. Yes, they have longer range, but they also vary more in elevation. They were intended to strike a vertical type target, ie. man, that gives that latitude. They are fine in bores under .45 for limited use.
I've killed a lot of stuff with round ball. You don't need anything else for elk, if you put it where it's supposed to be.

[fouronesix]

7of7, I'd kinda figured the goal was a little more bullet for elk--- as in 7X7 bull elk

If the 66" twist simply won't work with the minie in your rifle, somewhere down the road you could look for a good condition 48" twist "drop-in" type barrel. That should no doubt easily stabilize the minie with the milder loads and any number of solid base conicals with much heavier loads. Just an option to BOLO for.

The only thing I'd add to the recommendations about loading and shooting the minie is, using your finger, try a small pea-sized dab of Crisco in the base and about the same amount smeared around in the bottom groove. I found with bullets like the minie-- they very sensitive to anything that disrupts balance and pristine condition when they leave the muzzle. I think a very soft lube like Crisco is less likely to disrupt that balance at any point on its flight. I also think that harder, stickier lubes in the grooves of a " stability sensitive" bullet like the minie will shuck irregularly as it leaves the muzzle and flies on its path- thus disrupting accurate flight.

Anyway, if all else fails with the minie, an accurate 54 PRB load allowing accurate shot placement at reasonable range will do ok on elk.

The 1974 edition of the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook has some good info and several interesting high speed photos of minies just after leaving the muzzle. I enjoy going back and looking at these once in a while and pondering. Here's a couple.

[Fly]

My suggestion is to stick with patched round balls. The elongated projectiles were developed for combat. Yes, they have longer range, but they also vary more in elevation. They were intended to strike a vertical type target, ie. man, that gives that latitude. They are fine in bores under .45 for limited use.
I've killed a lot of stuff with round ball. You don't need anything else for elk, if you put it where it's supposed to be.

I agree.Most hunting with muzzle loaders is 100 or less yards.If your hunting elk in NM at long range that,s much differant.But at 100 or less
yards that round ball will kill all most anything under 500 lb,s.
Fly

[Hanshi]

My "Mississippi" .54 rifle has a 1-66" twist. It will shoot conicals tolerably well but is a tack driver with prb. 60grns 3F and a 225grn prb is a superb target load. For years I used 110grns 3F for (another target-level) a hunting load.

[curator]

Try loading about 70 grains of FFG then load a half-measure (35-40 grains) of Cream of Wheat cereal (Original not microwave) If your minie ball is close to bore (land) diameter, this should tighten up your groups. This load is also a good hunting load if it will shoot accurately. Another possibility is your minie bullets may have voids at the apex of the hollow base plug. This will also cause them to shoot all over the place. The Cream of Wheat trick has worked for me in numerous .54, 58, and .69 caliber rifles with slow twist and minie balls. The Cream of Wheat filler insures that the base expands upon powder ignition and prevents gas from escaping past the bullet in the bore. This usually leads to much better accuracy if the bullet itself is not out of balance. It also shoots much cleaner to boot!

[iron brigade]

My suggestion would be to use a solid base bullet like the great plains or tc maxi ball for elk. use 80-90 grains of powder. those hodgdon minie's were really designed for targets. although some do use them for deer. 50-55 grains then. just my .02 cents.

[idahoron]

I have the 50 cal Skirmish mould. I haven't shot them is a while but they are a great bullet in a 1-28 twist. My rifle like them on the big side. I am paper patching them and pushing them a bit harder. The 50 yard groups are what I normally get with my Paper Patched 500 S&W bullets. With some tweaking I am sure they would shoot as well. But like I said my gun like them big. Ron

[smithland]

I have been using the RCBS Hodgen Minie in a 1-66" twist Bill Large Barrel for about 15 years with excellent results. I size the bullet to about a thousand and a half under bore size. I have three recommendations for you. First, If your barrel is brand new, you may need to take the burrs/edges off the rifling by putting some valve grinding compound (get at any auto parts supply) on the outside of about 5-7 minies and shoot them with your regular load (I use 50 GFF for targets). You may be surprised how fast your group tightens. Second, from my experience, anytime I've seen a "keyhole" (bullet turns sideways before striking the target and the imprint is the shape of a bullet looking at it from the side), your lead is too hard. "Near pure" won't get it. Should be at least 99% plus pure lead, preferably virgin (not something out of a scrap yard). Lastly, if either of the first two doesn't help, put a post on the North South Skirmish Association website at http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/ under the Shooting Tips section, alot of knowledgeable people there on shooting minies. Good Luck!

[fouronesix]

7of7,
Yes, very soft near pure lead is important. But I challenge anyone to do an assay on the lead they have to determine "pure" lead, be it 98.6% or 99.7% or whatever - short of spending a bunch of money sending it to a lab.

Also, even though it is often advised on this and maybe other forums to fire lap a bore- do so with care and only if needed!. Not a lot to gain in prematurely wearing an otherwise good bore. Regular shooting and cleaning will lap the bore. If there are indeed rough areas or ribbon knife edges on the lands then for certain don't use one of the coarse valve grinding compounds found at the parts store. Some of the coarse grits are in the category of 50 grit rating or coarser! Make sure the compound is fine grit in the range of 400-600 grit rating. Then you can follow up with 2-3 fire lapping shots using JBs for the final finish if desired.

[7of7]

I have been using the RCBS Hodgen Minie in a 1-66" twist Bill Large Barrel for about 15 years with excellent results. I size the bullet to about a thousand and a half under bore size. I have three recommendations for you. First, If your barrel is brand new, you may need to take the burrs/edges off the rifling by putting some valve grinding compound (get at any auto parts supply) on the outside of about 5-7 minies and shoot them with your regular load (I use 50 GFF for targets). You may be surprised how fast your group tightens. Second, from my experience, anytime I've seen a "keyhole" (bullet turns sideways before striking the target and the imprint is the shape of a bullet looking at it from the side), your lead is too hard. "Near pure" won't get it. Should be at least 99% plus pure lead, preferably virgin (not something out of a scrap yard). Lastly, if either of the first two doesn't help, put a post on the North South Skirmish Association website at http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/ under the Shooting Tips section, alot of knowledgeable people there on shooting minies. Good Luck!

Thanks for the advice on the lead.. I went out and checked the hardness... they ranged 7-8.5 going to dig through my other lead, and see what other softer stuff I have..

[7of7]

I have the 50 cal Skirmish mould. I haven't shot them is a while but they are a great bullet in a 1-28 twist. My rifle like them on the big side. I am paper patching them and pushing them a bit harder. The 50 yard groups are what I normally get with my Paper Patched 500 S&W bullets. With some tweaking I am sure they would shoot as well. But like I said my gun like them big. Ron

What happens to all that paper that you wrap the bullet in?

[fouronesix]

Minies of BHN 5-6 seem to work best.

Just as in BPCR paper patch bullets- the lands should cut the paper and the paper leaves the bullet as confetti shorty after it leaves the muzzle.

[idahoron]

yep that is how it works.
7of7, The paper protects the bullet from the barrel and the barrel from the lead. Ron

[7of7]

Made it to the range today.. PRB,... the bullseye eluded me.. one side, or the other..
I tried some of the NS with pure lead, 5-5.5 bhn, tried different powder charges.. still,... not working well.. May have to try paper patching them, or finding a faster twist barrel.. I sure like the way they cut holes in the paper...
Anyway, with the prb, I am getting 3" groups at 50 yards.. (most likely operator error,... or just a newb learning about BP) I do know, I am not flinching..
Got to order some powder from Powder Inc now.. then, I will be able to re-evaluate my charges. I did give 50 grains a go with the NS, but, it didn't even make it on paper. Tried it with crisco.. only.. same results.
May just have to find another Hawken with a 1-48 twist.. in a 54 cal...

[cwskirmisher]

The issue you are having with the minnie is not the barrel twist rate, or the hardness of the lead (although that can contribute if not dead soft).... it is the barrel rifling. Rifling cut for a PRB is usually deep. Rifling cut for a minnie is shallow. The minnie cannot expand enough to seal the bore and stabilize the bullet in a barrel cut for PRB. That is why you got terrible accuracy and keyholes in the target. I dare say you probably had some pretty horrific leading as well with the gas cutting that occured. When you upped the powder charge, you got the expansion needed, but are most likely still not getting complete expansion to seal the bore. you could be blowing out the skirt, but I doubt it with 95 grains. but in either instance, it makes acceptable accuracy impossible - you were now hitting the target fine, and the bullet was stabilized - but as you observed, groups were rather large - due to the inconsistency of each minnie as it left the muzzle either due to the incomplete expansion or a blown skirt. The Hawkins barrel is designed for a PRB - stick with that. The original 1841 Mississippi rifle musket had deep rifling and shot best with and was designed for a PRB. When the Army switched to the minnie after the Mexican War, they realized it wouldn't shoot worth a damn. Most were re-rifled into .58's after that to fix the issue and to standardize rifle musket ammo. As for twist rate, my original 1855 rifle musket shoots 510 grain standard minnies all day long, very accurately, with a 1:72 twist rate and 3 L/G. My original 1841 Mississippi had to have a sleeve installed, as the original rifling as found was too far gone - but I had it sleeved for a minnie (shallow) to .540 and a 1:60 twist, 7 L/G. It shoots a .538 minnie and a .539 Wilkinson perfectly. Both will shoot a 4" group at 100 yards easily off hand, and if benched can shoot 2" groups at 100 yards with a light charge of 43 grains of 3Fg BP target load. Hunting loads of 60 grains 3F will break both shoulders and still pass through and through a whitetail.

[fouronesix]

The issue you are having with the minnie is not the barrel twist rate, or the hardness of the lead (although that can contribute if not dead soft).... it is the barrel rifling. Rifling cut for a PRB is usually deep. Rifling cut for a minnie is shallow. The minnie cannot expand enough to seal the bore and stabilize the bullet in a barrel cut for PRB. That is why you got terrible accuracy and keyholes in the target. I dare say you probably had some pretty horrific leading as well with the gas cutting that occured. When you upped the powder charge, you got the expansion needed, but are most likely still not getting complete expansion to seal the bore. you could be blowing out the skirt, but I doubt it with 95 grains. but in either instance, it makes acceptable accuracy impossible - you were now hitting the target fine, and the bullet was stabilized - but as you observed, groups were rather large - due to the inconsistency of each minnie as it left the muzzle either due to the incomplete expansion or a blown skirt. The Hawkins barrel is designed for a PRB - stick with that. The original 1841 Mississippi rifle musket had deep rifling and shot best with and was designed for a PRB. When the Army switched to the minnie after the Mexican War, they realized it wouldn't shoot worth a damn. Most were re-rifled into .58's after that to fix the issue and to standardize rifle musket ammo. As for twist rate, my original 1855 rifle musket shoots 510 grain standard minnies all day long, very accurately, with a 1:72 twist rate and 3 L/G. My original 1841 Mississippi had to have a sleeve installed, as the original rifling as found was too far gone - but I had it sleeved for a minnie (shallow) to .540 and a 1:60 twist, 7 L/G. It shoots a .538 minnie and a .539 Wilkinson perfectly. Both will shoot a 4" group at 100 yards easily off hand, and if benched can shoot 2" groups at 100 yards with a light charge of 43 grains of 3Fg BP target load. Hunting loads of 60 grains 3F will break both shoulders and still pass through and through a whitetail.

I thought the Union converted some of the 54 cal Mississippis to 58 cal in an attempt to standardize the ammo (58 cal) - not because the 54 Mississippi was inaccurate with a minie. I have an original 54 Mississippi and it shoots both PRBs and minies extremely well.

[cwskirmisher]

I thought the Union converted some of the 54 cal Mississippis to 58 cal in an attempt to standardize the ammo (58 cal) - not because the 54 Mississippi was inaccurate with a minie. I have an original 54 Mississippi and it shoots both PRBs and minies extremely well.

As I stated, many were converted for the purposes of standardizing ammo. But there were other .54's in service as well (Lorenz, Jager, etc) that were designed for conicals, so .54 muzzle loader ammo was still available - that your '41 shoots minnies well is an exception - check the rifling - is it shallow or deep? How many L/G's? If it is close to being shot out, then it could very well sustain a minnie OK since the rifling might be shallow enough. My original as found had most of the rifling worn out, and the bore was badly pitted - So, I didn't try it with a minnie, I just sent it off to be relined.

[fouronesix]

The original 1841 Mississippi rifle musket had deep rifling and shot best with and was designed for a PRB. When the Army switched to the minnie after the Mexican War, they realized it wouldn't shoot worth a damn. Most were re-rifled into .58's after that to fix the issue and to standardize rifle musket ammo.

Standardize ammo yes, but conversion to 58 to fix the issue of not shooting well ??

Mine might be an anomaly, but would guess it is close to "as issued" condition. It has an exceptional, near pristine bore with fairly deep, 7 groove rifling. Could also be that the conversion to 58 for some of them made sense after the Mexican War because many of the 54 Mississippi bores could have been "shot out" or pitted or in otherwise poor condition.

Here's my original 54 cal Mississippi with a minie target shot at 50 yards. Minie is laying on the target. Two 5 shot groups. I don't know if this is considered good for a musket since no one around here shoots muskets and very few shoot traditional MLs of any kind. But the groups seem good to me. The load is 54 gr FFF Wano.