My homemade black powder

[indian joe]

Yes, Bill Knight's comments about Goex under Gerhardt and Owen and their very typical investor profit only penny pinching safety neglect practices are eye opening.
His work needs to be preserved, he's not around anymore so if the archives are lost, so is his work.

The 1986 Fed report of homie trying to repair the still energized light or power switch in the packing house and starting a chain reaction that blew the carts of powder was something out of a cartoon. I have to admit, I laughed.
No it wasn't a laughing matter for the employees but ya know, no one was injured in that specific event and Gerhardt and Owen didn't save any money. So I laughed. The electrician would have cost what compared to weeks of shutdown for an investigation and repairs? That's more money than brains right there.

yeah I read that years ago - didnt laugh at all - unable to find humor in anything that bone dense STUPID ------but time marches on and incidents like that become accepted as the level of danger and we are judged accordingly . I have asked the question many times - what is the comparitive danger level between handling blackpowder and filling your lawnmower with gasoline ?? I know for sure which one is the easier to ignite (hint! it aint the gunpowder) ----yet one is a a deadly dangerous thing and the other treated almost with disdain. ??????????

[Super Sneaky Steve]

yeah I read that years ago - didnt laugh at all - unable to find humor in anything that bone dense STUPID ------but time marches on and incidents like that become accepted as the level of danger and we are judged accordingly . I have asked the question many times - what is the comparitive danger level between handling blackpowder and filling your lawnmower with gasoline ?? I know for sure which one is the easier to ignite (hint! it aint the gunpowder) ----yet one is a a deadly dangerous thing and the other treated almost with disdain. ??????????

I've tried to light a jar of gasoline on fire and I say tried because it doesn't burn or even explode. The vapors are what do the exploding. So there's no comparison of gasoline and BP. Gas is very safe unless it's atomized. You can throw a match right into the liquid and it will go out.

[indian joe]

I've tried to light a jar of gasoline on fire and I say tried because it doesn't burn or even explode. The vapors are what do the exploding. So there's no comparison of gasoline and BP. Gas is very safe unless it's atomized. You can throw a match right into the liquid and it will go out.

we'll have to disagree on that one - kick that jar of gas over on the garage floor and drop your match - after you get out of hospital give me a call!!!

[HWooldridge]

A neighbor of mine was helping some teenage boys try to start an older truck with a carburetor. He had a small cup of gasoline and was pouring it in the carb as they cranked the engine. He was also smoking a cigarette at the same time. An ember fell into the cup and the gas flashed in his face then the burning fuel went all over his face and neck - about 2 ounces of fluid. He was fine when the ambulance arrived, but his neck swelled overnight and choked off the blood to his brain, so he was a vegetable from that point until he died a few months later. Diesel isn't too bad near an ignition source, but gasoline goes bang so quickly...

[Inebriated Eremite]

Best thing to do is to take every precaution you can and know that just like driving or walking down the road next to a busy street, that risks are always there.

[HWooldridge]

I’m in the camp who makes only about 200 grams at a time, and I work inside my almost entirely steel farm shop. Subsequently, pretty much everything is grounded - e.g., several steel tables on a dirt floor. An explosion would likely blow out the windows (and my eardrums if I was inside), but nothing would catch fire and I doubt the metal structure would be damaged. I don’t remotely start and stop the tumbling process but I also don’t spend time in the shop when it’s underway.

Sandbags sound like a good barrier, and it’s easy to pile up three sides then leave the top and one side open - but in the end, batch size is near the top of the list for those variables which could make the difference between a bad scare and serious injury or death.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

we'll have to disagree on that one - kick that jar of gas over on the garage floor and drop your match - after you get out of hospital give me a call!!!

Gasoline has a Lower Flammability Limit of 1.4% and an Upper Flammability Limit of 7.6%. Here's an SDS that gives these figures.
https://www.hess.com/docs/us-safety-...s.pdf?sfvrsn=2
If you don't know what these terms mean, here's the definition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammability_limit

I have no doubt that kicking over the gas with an ignition source would cause a massive fire but handling a gallon of contained gas is no where near as dangerous as grinding up a pound of black powder.

[jmh54738]

[QUOTE=HWooldridge;5602685]I’m in the camp who makes only about 200 grams at a time, and I work inside my almost entirely steel farm shop. Subsequently, pretty much everything is grounded - e.g., several steel tables on a dirt floor. .

I haven't been here for a year, but my knowledge has increased. I have had great results with pucked bp using white pine, cedar, and aspen (my best). My velocities in my test rifle with 45 cal round ball will exceed the velocity of Goex powder. However, I have cooked the heck out of my wood at high temperature, and without any temp or quality control. Reading the Swiss BP booklet has provides an incredible amount of details as to their charcoal production. Hence, I began last Easter, when the sap was up, to collect live... Sumac, Cottonwood, Aspen, Buckthorn, Willow, Box Elder and Red Berry Elder. Bark was peeled These species seem to be suitable, lightweight and available on my 140 acres.
I am now following the info in the Swiss BP Booklet, cooking the wood to 600 deg F, the pyrometer from my heat treat furnace is providing the temperature reading. I am using a gentle flame rather than a roaring blast of heat. From 400 to 500 degrees, the batch temperature rises rather quickly, with no increase from the heat source. The same occurs from 500 to 600, so I have toi watch carefully and turn the heat down Seems to be an endothermic reaction. The resulting charcoal does indeed make a dark brown mark on paper (from Swiss BP Booklet), rather than the full black color from my previously overcooked charcoal. Too much humidity for milling at present, but at least I am establishing some quality control.
John

[HWooldridge]

[QUOTE=jmh54738;5602709]

I’m in the camp who makes only about 200 grams at a time, and I work inside my almost entirely steel farm shop. Subsequently, pretty much everything is grounded - e.g., several steel tables on a dirt floor. .

I haven't been here for a year, but my knowledge has increased. I have had great results with pucked bp using white pine, cedar, and aspen (my best). My velocities in my test rifle with 45 cal round ball will exceed the velocity of Goex powder. However, I have cooked the heck out of my wood at high temperature, and without any temp or quality control. Reading the Swiss BP booklet has provides an incredible amount of details as to their charcoal production. Hence, I began last Easter, when the sap was up, to collect live... Sumac, Cottonwood, Aspen, Buckthorn, Willow, Box Elder and Red Berry Elder. Bark was peeled These species seem to be suitable, lightweight and available on my 140 acres.
I am now following the info in the Swiss BP Booklet, cooking the wood to 600 deg F, the pyrometer from my heat treat furnace is providing the temperature reading. I am using a gentle flame rather than a roaring blast of heat. From 400 to 500 degrees, the batch temperature rises rather quickly, with no increase from the heat source. The same occurs from 500 to 600, so I have toi watch carefully and turn the heat down Seems to be an endothermic reaction. The resulting charcoal does indeed make a dark brown mark on paper (from Swiss BP Booklet), rather than the full black color from my previously overcooked charcoal. Too much humidity for milling at present, but at least I am establishing some quality control.
John

Charcoal quality seems to be the most important variable, followed by the milling process. The potassium nitrate and sulfur can be more or less standardized, but the type of charcoal can make or break the final result.

[indian joe]

Gasoline has a Lower Flammability Limit of 1.4% and an Upper Flammability Limit of 7.6%. Here's an SDS that gives these figures.
https://www.hess.com/docs/us-safety-...s.pdf?sfvrsn=2
If you don't know what these terms mean, here's the definition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammability_limit

I have no doubt that kicking over the gas with an ignition source would cause a massive fire but handling a gallon of contained gas is no where near as dangerous as grinding up a pound of black powder.

you are changing the ground rules here

take a 20 litre metal gas can with a couple teaspoons left in the bottom - drop your lighted match in that lot - again call me when ya get out of hospital

everything is safe if the required precautions are taken -
we will continue to disagree ..................

[StevenDJ]

Here is an interesting photograph some of you may like. It shows dry blackpowder dusted over a microscope slide and imaged using the fancy technique of carefully holding my phone to the ocular lens.

To me it is interesting because after scanning the slide I found this small piece of charcoal that was much larger than all the others showing the vascular or cellular nature of the wood.

If I wasn't having so much trouble attaching more photos, I could show you slides of dry and dissolved blackpowder. It is virtually impossible to distinguish the sulfur from the potassium nitrate, but by dissolving the potassium nitrate dissapears leaving only the sulfur as pale blue crystals.

Will it help make better gunpowder. Nope! But it was still fun to have a look at.

Steve

[StevenDJ]

I have asked the question many times - what is the comparitive danger level between handling blackpowder and filling your lawnmower with gasoline ??

This is an interesting idea and worth thinking about. When I was younger I used a small capful of petrol/gasoline to help get a wet burn pile of weeds going. That small amount of fuel just about lifted the whole backyard when I finally dropped a match. I think your comparison is fair!

[indian joe]

This is an interesting idea and worth thinking about. When I was younger I used a small capful of petrol/gasoline to help get a wet burn pile of weeds going. That small amount of fuel just about lifted the whole backyard when I finally dropped a match. I think your comparison is fair!

I used to be game enough to use a bit of petrol (gasoline) to get a fire going - be careful and it was ok - but since we switched to unleaded I believe it is way more volatile. I used that capful - about a dessertspoonful - poured ahead of a little fire that had almost quit two days ago - damp grass and leaves that was not quite doing enough - just had enough time to step aside and POOF! low temperature and zero wind it volitised out and gas ignited about a foot and a half circle . I think my comparison is fair too. (result was about what I had expected)

[Trapper-Jack]

Indian Joe, you are right about this unleaded gas being more volatile than the old stuff. Add in the ethanol and it is more so. We have a restored 1951 GMC pickup that does well until the temperature gets above 90 or so. Then it will want to vapor lock between the fuel pump and carburetor. Gas is vaporizing in the fuel line. The old stuff didn't do that.

[StevenDJ]

gas ignited about a foot and a half circle .

Yep, that was my experience too, but you could move the decimal point one digit to the right. Fifteen feet around the pile and me and the weeds were burning together. I lost a few hairs that day.

Sometimes I will make a 'Woosh Bottle' as a classroom demonstration. A few millilitres of ethanol in a 20L water cooler bottle. Shake it around to coat the walls and let it vaporise. Tip out the excess ethanol and light the vapours from the mouth. It gives a wonderful blue flame and an awesome sound. The kids love it and they are then well-primed to listen to a lesson about complete and incomplete combustion of hydrocarbons.

I guess that is what we are aiming for when making sporting blackpowder...trying to achieve complete combustion of the carbon in the fastest time possible.

[Nobade]

Recently I have been working on a job to clear about 20 acres of Autumn Olive trees. Elaeagnus umbellata. That stuff grows incredibly fast, and the wood is rather soft and weak. I am planning on cutting a bunch of it to peel and try making charcoal out of, just wondering if anybody here has tried it yet? If it works I'll have a lifetime supply for all of us and then some.

[HWooldridge]

Recently I have been working on a job to clear about 20 acres of Autumn Olive trees. Elaeagnus umbellata. That stuff grows incredibly fast, and the wood is rather soft and weak. I am planning on cutting a bunch of it to peel and try making charcoal out of, just wondering if anybody here has tried it yet? If it works I'll have a lifetime supply for all of us and then some.

The Wichita Buggy test chart lists it as almost but not quite equal to Sassafras.

[DoubleBuck]

Nobade;
I had to look to see what the difference in Russian Olive and Autum Olives are. It seems not much, but there is some. I have wondered about Russian Olives and know where some are, in Oklahoma. At some point, I would like to test them.
As you already know, they both grow very fast, are light density, small diameter, thin barked and fast, hot burning. If you could do an ash test on some of your Autum Olive, that would be the make or break, for me. If it has low ash content, it should be really good powder fodder.
As HW said, above, http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fire...oal_tests.html, lists its burn rate (.400) very similiar to Staghorn Sumac (.410), Hemp (.391), Cotton (.401), while Black Willow and Balsa were .451 and .434, respectively.
So, it shows very respectable burn rates; and if it has a low ash content, and equivalent power of Black Willow, Staghorn Sumac, or Balsa, you have a winner, no doubt.
Please post any tests or results you find. Inquiring minds need to know! Good luck with it and I hope it tests out great.

[Nobade]

This is good information, thanks! I will certainly report back when I know something.

[Trapper-Jack]

This last week I finally broke down and bought a chronograph to do some velocity testing on my Hybrid Willow powder against Goex. I used some Goex 2F and my Willow was passing the #16 screen and retained on the #30. I shot a string of five shots each through my Lyman GPR flintlock with a 32" barrel. .021 spit lubed patch and a .490 round ball. I was using an adjustable brass measure but compensating for the difference in weight. The Goex weight of 65 grains corresponded to 65 grains of my measure. Where my Willow powder is 92% by weight of Goex, it measured 71 grains on the measure. Once the measure was set it wasn't changed during the string. When time permits, I'll use actual prepared weighed loads and see if there is much difference. I used the measure this time as 99% of the time I am loading from the bag.
Goex
Average Velocity - 1390 fps
Extreme Spread - 35 fps
Standard Deviation - 14.76
Hybrid Willow
Average Velocity - 1430 fps
Extreme Spread - 24 fps
Standard Deviation - 9.04
As I said, the next step will be to see what actual weighed loads do as I may have a variance in the volume setting of the measure which could change the actual velocity of the string. So far the two numbers that have me excited are the extreme spread and the standard deviation. They indicate that my powder is more consistent.
I would like to thank all of you that have contributed to this thread that have brought me to this point.