.38 S&W penetration test, 200g bullets

[LouisianaMan]

Oyeboten,
I use a Lee sizer and I tumble-lube. I only started casting a year ago, and my first experiences with tumble-lubing weren't encouraging. But I did some reading--especially on this forum--and saw that lots of guys had better results when they cut the Lee Liquid Alox 50-50 with mineral spirits. I tried that & my problems vanished--very happy with everything I've lubed that way.

That is a nice-looking Official Police .38-200! I got one in .38 SPL a couple of months ago, and finally shot it yesterday. Nice gun, and big for my hands. I even spent some time beforehand sanding down the inside of the smoot wooden grips it came with (used), to make it easier folr me to hold. My hands are pretty big, but the length of pull on those Colt E/I frames is on the longish side for me. Anyway, that frame is essentially the same as a Python, and you could cook up some powerful .38-200 loads in it!!

Somewhere recently I saw & responded to a thread by a fellow who was seriously thinking about buying a .38-200, I think it was a Victory Model for about $375. Let me know if you''re interested and I'll try to find it for you.

I believe a person can never have too many .38 S&W's, but I'm afraid my bank account disagrees!! Someday I'll snag a Victory Model, but I also "need" a 1917 Colt, and of course a Remington-Rand 1911A1 like I carried in the service, and. . .and. . .and. . .

[LouisianaMan]

Oh, and Exile, you're exactly right! I loved teaching at West Point, and in my six years there I doubtless learned more history than I managed to teach. Intellectually a very stimulating, challenging & rewarding environment, for sure, with a wider variety of political opinions than many might imagine. Personally, I'm conservative and there were others like me there, but there were also liberals--perhaps even more than conservatives. Not many, if any, actual leftists, though.

We were encouraged to teach history using our own background and interpretation, but we also believed true professional standards require that a professor advise his students where the facts stop, and his opinion starts, if you know what I mean. I had fun discussing secession, for instance, from a Constitutional perspective, which few of my students had ever heard before. But I made certain that they understood that (a) I'm happy to be an American, and (b) I'm not a Constitutional historian or scholar, so I could be wrong and would welcome more learned opinions on the matter. My problem with so many profs in other universities is that they disguise their opinions as fact, and fact as someone else's (invalid) opinion.

[LouisianaMan]

Oyeboten,
See http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-han...-38-200-a.html for that revolver I was talking about. Apparently $365 is the asking price. No other knowledge besides what's in the thread, but the OP knows more & you could contact him if interested.

[Oyeboten]

Thanks LouisannaMan,


That 38-200 from the 700,000 serial Range, and having a 6 Inch Barrel, does sound very appealing..!

Not your usual Cup of Tea there.


I am thinking of loading up some .38 S&W with Black Powder, and, some with '777' and having the Bullet hang out as far as possible, for my little Iver Johnson 3rd Model.

If I do, I would Chrograph the results.



I just do not have any really appopriate Bullets for it...but, I do have some 148 HBWCs, and I could try those...and or I could maybe bump them 'up' a little on an Anvil, with a Round Nose Punch into the Hollow...and see if I can get them a little chubbier.

I am wanting a .360 Sizing Die, but I do not have one yet. I could put a Bullet into that, on the Anvil, and with a shaped Punch, bump it up a little that way.

[LouisianaMan]

I've read that some brand(s) of HBWC are .360 or more at the base--I think Remington? Take a look at MidwayUSA and look for a review by Ed Harris, whose expertise you may be familiar with.

Don't remember what my sizer die cost here on Cast Boolits--I think about $15 shipped. PM me if interested in ordering info.

Have you read up on "beagling" a mold? It's nothing more than taking small strips of adhesive-backed aluminum tape, available at any hardware store, and putting strips next to each cavity and a longer strip just below the bases of the cavities. To get a bit more diameter, just add a matching set on the other half of the mold. Mine are eyeballed and not super-precise, so it's pretty quick & easy. After casting a couple hundred, I'll have one or two pieces of tape falling out, so I keep andeye on it & either put it back or replace it with a new piece. It's a very simple, effective way to fatten up your bullets.

BTW, do you know the size of the chamber throats on that concealable classic? (Beautiful break-top snubbie!) Ideally, bullets should pass thru a lightly-oiled chamber with a little finger pressure, then let the barrel swage the bullets as needed. With a snubbie like yours, the only real concern I'd have would be ensuring (1) the rounds chamber, and (2) they're not so much bigger than groove diameter that you might have a pressure concern--at least account for that in your loads.

Last note: not sure what molds you have, but anything around 140-160g would be great for starters. That gun looks like the ultimate coat-pocket revolver, and it must be fun to shoot! A definite candidate for close-range point shooting. . .

[Oyeboten]

Hi LouisannaMan,


Thanks so much for your encouragements and good will.

This Thread - or it's parallel versions elsewhere at times - has been a real pleasure for me.

I went to Storage and dug out old Mr. Iver Johnson, and, have now measured some things.

Cylinder Bores are all a tidy .362

Bore, likewise .362

Yes! Good mention there on ways of having a Mold cast a little fatter...I did not think of that.

Even though I had found that out on accident, having a smear of Lead on an over-heated Mold, which then gave fatter Boolits till I cleaned the thin smear off.

I do have a few Molds ostensibly for .38 Special, which I could let cast a little chubbier.


I just checked the Weight of a .364 Lead Ball, and it is kinda light - 72.6-ish Grains.

Here is a good place for seeing weights of Lead Balls -

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/resc...=364&v2=2876.1

I may send off for some .365-ish Lead Balls, Size them to .361 so I have a nice 'Equatore' to Crimp to...and load a few Cartidges with "777" and one 'Ball' and see what those do, too.

Looking at my 148 Grain HBWCs, I think I can take a Round Nose Punch and bump them up on an Anvil...I will try it and report back soon. If they are too chubby for a couple wacks, I can find from trying, and or I can 'roll' them hard under a Steel Plate on the Anvil and bring them down to a nice .360 or .361 or so I imagine...I just want to try a handfull, so, should not be too bad to try.

For Pure Lead or low BRN Alloy, I am guessing a size of .361 or even .360 ought to be fine...yes?

[LouisianaMan]

I look forward to the results of your experiments--sounds like the ball idea is sort of a gallery load, huh? Isn't 000 buckshot .360 in diameter? They may be something to consider.

When you use your punch/anvil/plate ideas, it's probably a good idea to see how much bearing surface you wind up with; if it's much more than normal, that would boost pressures & you'll need to adjust powder charge accordingly. I'd start pretty light, most likely.

Once, when I was "smushing" some 200g LRNs into LFNs, I got too enthusiastic & smushed it pretty flat, then ran it thru my .361 sizer and wound up with a smooth-sided cylinder of lead! I still have about 5 of them that I need to study some more & see if I want to shoot them, or just pull the bullets & melt them back down, as I did with the other bullets in that batch. I'm no engineer, but I imagine that pressure begins to rise as the bullet engages the rifling, and stabilizes once it's fully engaged and just rotating as it proceeds thru the barrel. The longer it takes to fully engage, the higher the pressure builds--how much, I have no idea. (Come to think of it, I think I will pull those bullets, because I didn't reduce the powder charge

If you wind up with a hollow-based soft lead bullet after you "smush" your bullets, I would imagine .360 is a good place to start, as that will allow a couple of thousandths expansion under firing pressure until it fills your groove diameter of .362 (you said bore diameter, which is rifling-to-rifling, but I'm assuming you meant groove diameter, right?) I don't know anything about BP/777 characteristics as propellant, but the Civil War-era Minie ball worked on the same principles we're discussing. It was soft lead, hollow-based, sub-bore caliber to allow easy loading from the muzzle, and the base would bump up upon firing to expand into the rifling for stabilization.

Was your IJ manufactured in the black powder-era? If so, it should enjoy shooting the loads you plan to make for it! Do you have a chronograph to allow you to measure the vels you're achieving, or will you have to judge based on perceived recoil? I bought a chrony a year or two ago for just over $100 from Midway, and it has sure given me peace of mind in the reloading end of things. There are just so many variables in reloading data that it is hard to tell how that will relate to the gun(s) I'm loading for. . .

[LouisianaMan]

Oyeboten,
PS--the more I think of the Minie ball analogy, the more I think it would make sense to try loading a few as-is, to see if they'll bump up enough upon firing to engage the rifling. If they keyhole, or are very inconsistent, or if you can chrony them and see that vels are absurdly low or variable because they aren't bumping up enough, then you can consider increasing the powder charge to obtain greater expansion of the hollow base, or going ahead and bumping them as discussed above. Best of luck, happy shooting, and stay safe!

[Oyeboten]

Hi LouisannaMan,


Mr. "I.J." 3rd Model was made ( I think...) in 1932. The 3rd Models if memory serve, began around 1913, and, were re-engineered for 'Smokeless'.

I was not planning on using any Smokeless though, unless one consider '777' to be a sort of Smokless type.

Black Powder Loads are always compressed, no Air Space. One can reduce a Load by using 'fillers', such as Cream of Wheat, but, I would see no point in that for such a short Cartridge.

'777' one uses with no Air space, but, with no Compression either, and it is slightly more powerful than Black Powder, but, not so much more powerful that full Loadings with it would bother any Arm in good condition if well made to begin with.

So, with this in mind, I would have no reason to reduce any Loads, since at their max, with the Bullet kinds and weights I have in mind, they will be fine for Mr. I.J.

Probably the .357, 148 grain HBWCs I have would work alright as-is.

I will try Loading some various things, small groups of 'ten' rounds for each experimental kind.

I do have a Chronograph, and, with Black Powder, and the Chronograph, 10 Yards is a good distance, lest the Smoke interfere with the Insturment's readings!

At some point I may elect to try, say, "Unique'' for some Loadings, or something else if I could decide what would be a good choice, and if I do I will be very prudent and careful...but for now, I wish to see what Black Powder and '777' will do.

[Oyeboten]

Yes...Lol...I said 'Bore Diameter' but I meant 'Groove' Diameter...

This always confuses me! And by now, it should not, but, it still does.

Bore is what the diameter was before being Rifled, and, of course, then ends up being the distance between the Lands...and not the distance between the Grooves.

I need to remember to say 'Groove Diameter'.

This will be my 'Mantra' for the day...

[StarMetal]

Hi LouisannaMan,


Mr. "I.J." 3rd Model was made ( I think...) in 1932. The 3rd Models if memory serve, began around 1913, and, were re-engineered for 'Smokeless'.

I was not planning on using any Smokeless though, unless one consider '777' to be a sort of Smokless type.

Black Powder Loads are always compressed, no Air Space. One can reduce a Load by using 'fillers', such as Cream of Wheat, but, I would see no point in that for such a short Cartridge.

'777' one uses with no Air space, but, with no Compression either, and it is slightly more powerful than Black Powder, but, not so much more powerful that full Loadings with it would bother any Arm in good condition if well made to begin with.

So, with this in mind, I would have no reason to reduce any Loads, since at their max, with the Bullet kinds and weights I have in mind, they will be fine for Mr. I.J.

Probably the .357, 148 grain HBWCs I have would work alright as-is.

I will try Loading some various things, small groups of 'ten' rounds for each experimental kind.

I do have a Chronograph, and, with Black Powder, and the Chronograph, 10 Yards is a good distance, lest the Smoke interfere with the Insturment's readings!

At some point I may elect to try, say, "Unique'' for some Loadings, or something else if I could decide what would be a good choice, and if I do I will be very prudent and careful...but for now, I wish to see what Black Powder and '777' will do.

777 is much more powerful then BP. Hodgdon even states to reduce 777 loads by 10 % from Pyrodex loads.

I'll give you an example. I have a Ruger Old Army revolver. I shoot all sorts of projectiles from it such as 45 acp bullets and 45 Colt....lead of course. With a 40 grain by volume load of 777 and a Saeco 200 grain SWC 45 acp style bullet I can get near 1200 fps. Very easy to stay in the 1100 fps bracket. I was shocked to see that when I ran them over the chronograph. BP would get no ways near that.

Make your own decisions as to what I have discussed. In my opinion 777 is pretty stout stuff.

[Oyeboten]

Hi StarMetal,


Thank you for the mentions there on that.


In my imagination, being the .38 S&W is such a small Cartridge for volume, and being as the Ivor Johnson is a lot more stout in section on the Cylinder and Barrel, and likely a stronger Steel kind as well, than say, a 3rd or 4th Model, S&W DA...and being as it was made for Smokeless...

I am thinking a '777' loading which would be an equivelent of 10 percent over what Black Powder would do, should not be a worry.

Not as a steady diet! But as a few experimental Rounds, and or, as a 'SD' Round candidate.

Steady Diet ( like how often will I be shooting or plinking with it, besides maybe a dozen rounds a year if that? Lol... ), would be full charge Black Powder, which I know is below what it was meant to handle...or, maybe, light loadings of 'Unique' or other, if I could decide what would be good for this conditions.


1200 FPS, 200 Grain in .45 Colt is a little peppy!

But, is only slightly over the FPS found in the older 'Lyman' Tables from back when using 'Unique' ( as say, 1200 FPS and a 185 Grain Lead Bullet )...when the only Revolvers they could have had in mind, were latter 1st Generation Colts, and, Colt 'New Service' ones or maybe late M1878 DAs.


You were not compressing the '777' I hope?

I have been very careful with that so far in my use of it.

I like it for .45 Colt, and, for .38 Special...it is a very nice Powder.

Do you know of any Tables which attribute Pressures for the '777'?

[StarMetal]

Hi StarMetal,


Thank you for the mentions there on that..!


In my imagination, being the .38 S&W is such a small Cartridge for volume, and being as the Ivor Johnson is a lot more stout in section on the Cylinder and Barrel, than say, a 3rd or 4th Model, S&W DA...and being as it was made for Smokeless...

I am thinking a loading of 10 percent over what Black Powder would do, should not be a worry.

Not as a steady diet! But as a few experimental Rounds, and or, as a 'SD' Round candidate.

Steady Diet, would be full charge Black Powder, which I know is below what it was meant to handle.

1200 FPS, 200 Grain in .45 Colt is a little peppy!

But, is only slightly over the FPS found in the older 'Lyman' Tables from back when using 'Unique'.

You were not compressing the '777' I hope?

With the small capacity of the 38 S&W you mentioned I don't foresee any problems. I just wanted to make you aware that 777 is pretty powerful for what it is.

Hodgdon recommends in loading Pyrodex or 777 to firmly place the projectile again the powder charge. Being in my cap n ball there is room for the bullet and the cylinders are tapered, I know there isn't any airspace between the charge and the projectile, but not compressing the charge to a solid. That makes me wonder that Pyrodex and 777 are sold in solid pellet form as to what difference compressing loose versions of them might do?

[Oyeboten]

Quite so...


At least, so long as one does not compress, there is a built in limit as to how much '777' one can get into any given Cartridge Case anyway, if allowing for a normal Seating depth for the Bullet.

'Trailboss' might worth looking into, for Plinking Rounds with the .38 S&W too...should be pretty easy on the Arm and forgiving, being another one which is self regulating for it's Bulk sort of precluding an over-charge.

I loaded some .45 Colt recently for my older 'Uberti' Bisley 7-1/2 inch Barrel Revolver...and, was getting right around 1000 FPS with a 230 Grain Bullet...but this was not a full Charge, it was a little less than what full could be. Seemed very nice, pleasant, comfortable. Did well in my .45 Snubby also, clocking 715 average FPS out of a 2-1/4 inch Barrel. But the Snubby was meant for .45 ACP ( but has tapered Cylinder Bores which accept .45 Colt ) and I decided I would not shoot .45 Colt in it anymore since the Head space is so generous for anticipating Moon Clips being used.


This leads me to think that the '777' burns fairly fast, and, relies for it's Loading Density, on the ratio of air spaces between Powder Particles, hence, the admonishion to not Compress, which would alter the Loading Density toward a higher pressure realized for the volume the Powder ( initially ) occupies.

[StarMetal]

Quite so...


At least, so long as one does not compress, there is a built in limit as to how much '777' one can get into any given Cartridge Case anyway, if allowing for a normal Seating depth for the Bullet.

'Trailboss' might worth looking into, for Plinking Rounds with the .38 S&W too...should be pretty easy on the Arm and forgiving, being another one which is self regulating for it's Bulk sort of precluding an over-charge.

I loaded some .45 Colt recently for my older 'Uberti' Bisley 7-1/2 inch Barrel Revolver...and, was getting right around 1000 FPS with a 230 Grain Bullet...but this was not a full Charge, it was a little less than what full could be. Seemed very nice, pleasant, comfortable. Did well in my .45 Snubby also, clocking 715 average FPS out of a 2-1/4 inch Barrel. But the Snubby was meant for .45 ACP ( but has tapered Cylinder Bores which accept .45 Colt ) and I decided I would not shoot .45 Colt in it anymore since the Head space is so generous for anticipating Moon Clips being used.


This leads me to think that the '777' burns fairly fast, and, relies for it's Loading Density, on the ratio of air spaces between Powder Particles, hence, the admonishion to not Compress, which would alter the Loading Density toward a higher pressure realized for the volume the Powder ( initially ) occupies.

I'll tell you another thing. When it became difficult for me to purchase BP I started shooting Pyrodex. Well I shot it in my ROA also and it was clean and accurate. Then I noticed something I didn't like and discontinued the use of Pyrodex. That was Pyrodex started to flame cut my top strap. I knew Pyrodex burned hotter then BP, but not that hot!

More then likely will buy a case of BP.

I heard good things about Trailboss, but also heard that it's slightly corrosive. What's your opinion on that?

[Oyeboten]

I'll tell you another thing. When it became difficult for me to purchase BP I started shooting Pyrodex. Well I shot it in my ROA also and it was clean and accurate. Then I noticed something I didn't like and discontinued the use of Pyrodex. That was Pyrodex started to flame cut my top strap. I knew Pyrodex burned hotter then BP, but not that hot!

Ohhhh, that's not good!

Lol...

Yuck

I bought some 'Pyrodex P' late last year, and I have not opened or tried it yet.

More then likely will buy a case of BP.

I heard good things about Trailboss, but also heard that it's slightly corrosive. What's your opinion on that?

BP is just so nice in every way, having a Case of it would be swell.

I went through a Pound pretty fast with my Cap & Ball Revolvers, and, with loading .38 Special and .45 Colt with it.

Yes, everyone seems to like 'Trailboss', and, I bought some late last year, and, I have not tried it yet. seemed promising for 'Plinking' Rounds where one does not wish for or need fuller realizations of a Cartidge's potential.

I like Black Powder very much. I plan to make up some experimental rounds using it, and, my home Cast 200 Grain .38 Special Boolits. I plan to hold them out as far as possible, too...cramming every Grain I can get behind it.

I like '777' very much so far, in my several experiments with it.


I tried some 'Blackhorn 209', and it was so wimpy, my first reaction was 'Why would I want to bother?" ...and I have not bothered since.


Tried some 'Unique' in .45 Colt, and it made a believer outta me! Nice...

So...so far anyway, I like 'Unique' but my experience with it is very limited, and was close to the 1950s Full House Loading ( rather above present Loadings I am told ).

This having been 10 Grains of 'Unique' pushing an old fairly soft 'SAECO' # 453 Wadcutter of 230 Grains ( which I may have set too deep anyway, ) and it was 'peppy'...very agreeable all round...burned clean...had a good feel to it.


Funny though, my Black Powder rounds, the report would echoe off the distant Mountains.

'Unique', no echoe...very different Report...

[Buckshot]

LEFT Iver Johnson 5 shot break top, DA-SA revolver. The trigger and hammer still shows full case colors. Bright shiney bore. The only negative is the barrel/cylinder gap is about .012", but the cylinder is well timed and the pistol locks up tight/ There is ZERO wobble in the frame knuckle. RIGHT Iver Johnson 5 shot 38 SW @ 25 yards benched. Lyman 35863 pure lead, TL, 1.6gr Red Dot 510 fps. The most amazing thing about this group is the difficulty in actually trying to DELIBERATELY use the sights! The front sight blade is thin enough to be a deadly weapon itself, and the rear is on the top strap just ahead of the latch, and is a mere rounded bump with a groove in it. Talk about your eyeballs fuzzing out!



LEFT My British marked Victory model 38 S&W. RIGHT The boolit used was the Lee 358-148-WC. It was cast of pure lead, lube/sized .358" and then swaged to .363" with a hollow base added at the same time. The cartridge OAL was 1.115" with the case crimped into the bottom lube groove.



Some of the 38 S&W boolits I've used. From the LEFT Lyman 358430, cast of pure lead 204 grs, .359". Lyman 35863 WC cast of pure lead, 153gr .363" diameter, Lee group buy 100gr WC's 18 bhn, .361". Lee group buy 146gr RN cast of pure lead 148grs .362", and a loaded round with the boolit. Origional Winchester Colt New Police, and a 38 Special case for comparison.

Gopher Slayer and I were at the range a couple weeks back and I had four different loads using the 146gr RN slugs of 25 rounds each for 100 rounds total. I fired two 10 shot groups from each batch at 25 yards and then went on to doing some rifle stuff. While packing up to leave I remembered I had 5 rounds left of each of those 4 different loads, and decided it'd be dumb to take them home.

Some other shooter had scattered a bunch of clay birds at 100 yards, and there were a bunch of 'em still unbroken. Since they'd left for the day I suggested to Gopher Slayer that we expend those 20 rounds of 38 S&W at'em so I could dump all the cases in the tumbler. We each fired 10 rounds and we each broke one clay bird. None of the shots were really wide of the birds, and I bet had they been 10" paper plates we'd have gotten 3-4 hits apiece. The problem was that you didn't necessarily have to aim at a passing cloud, you did have to hold over far enough to block the target with the barrel

As a consequence you had to pick a mark on the berm about 8" above the plate and then move the barrel over, then visualize in your mind about where the clay bird was, then pull the trigger Had it been a man sized target out there I have no doubt the majority of shots would have easily connected in the torso.



LEFT This is my other 38 S&W. It too is a Victory model but has been 'doctored'. I got this from my dad. He'd bought it from a California Highway Patrolman in 1964 for $50. The barrel has been shortened to 4". The lanyard ring hole has been filled, and oddly it has no government ownership marks. RIGHT the chambers have had a 38 Special reamer run into them. You can shoot 38 Special ammo in it, but you won't hit much unless it's a big target and close. In addition it makes the Special cases a trifle 'bulgy' in the middle! It sure doesn't seem to have hurt the accuracy of any 38 S&W ammo fired in it any.

.............Buckshot

[Oyeboten]

Hi Buckshot,


Wow that was fun..!


I like how you have held the Bullets "out" a ways there in the one's shown on the Left.


I have been doing that with .38 Special and .45 Colt with Black Powder and '777' to get a little more in there, and, to lessen the jump to the Forcing Cone.

I plan to do it also for my own .38 S&W Loadings for Mr. Iver Johnson, using BP.


Why Red Dot? I am pretty uninformed on what is a good powder for What, especially once one wanders a little off the beaten path.


With a fast or medium fast Smokeless, I imagine, that if one hold the Bullet out as far as one can, it will allow a maybe better Loading with a better Charge volume to Air Volume for a desired Loading Density ( assuming one can calculate it alright which would not be too hard,) for a better push and no nasty pressure issues if trying to get all the safe ooooomph one can.

I have been brooding on that lately.


P.S.

Can you narrow your Images?

They have made the Thread a lot wider than my Screen, and I have to scroll sideways now to read things...it seems to have reset the Thread itself somehow.

[LouisianaMan]

Oyeboten,
BTW, Buckshot is the guy who made my outstanding .361 bullet sizer as well as the die I use to "smush" my bullets. Inexpensive, excellent quality, fast!

Buckshot,
Thanks for an excellent post! You are indeed The Man! Now, can you tell me how to (a) swage a .358 to a .360-something, and (b) how to form that hollow base? And if it is done with dies, and you make 'em, and you're willing to sell 'em, just let me know how much

[Oyeboten]

Hi LouisannaMan,


Can you post some Images of those things? Or the 'musher' anyway?


Does the Sizer fit the old Ideal or Lyman Sizer-Lubers?