When Did This Idea of a Rapture Come From?

[Good Cheer]

Finding a really good teacher who can demystify Revelation is a treasure.

[.429&H110]

Ah. Goodcheer!

I was taught in college that the Bible is a Jewish folk tale.
My Bible is an unreadable folk tale to a University professor, so we used an edited ESV for Comp Lit.

Abraham and Issac demonstrated we do not sacrifice our children.
"God provided the sacrifice". Yes indeed He did.
Did the children of Israel or America respect the simple Law " Thou shalt not murder"?

We must teach the whole Bible starting with Genesis.
The first sin is coveting, we want what we cannot have,
then we find out impulsive behavior ends badly.
Our Bible is the only Truth in a post-truth world,
Good News for them who will hear it.
"... all Scripture..."

[1hole]

Finding a really good teacher who can demystify Revelation is a treasure.

I'm glad that most of Revelation's symbolic "mysteries" are identified in the text. Most of the rest ... well, if our understandings and misunderstandings of some questions were spiritually or eternially critical God would have made it clear in scripture.

I think the questions of there being no more "time" in heaven tend to miss the point of what biblical time means. Time is the ultimate destroyer of all things but time is not a thing and scripture never suggests time will stop and freeze us in one place. However, we can reasonably argue that in God's perfect heaven "time" will stop in that the harmful effects of time won't hammer on man or creation anymore.

I often wonder about some factors of the eternal future but being concerned about eventually getting bored in heaven isn't one of them.

[Good Cheer]

Ah. Goodcheer!

I was taught in college that the Bible is a Jewish folk tale.
My Bible is an unreadable folk tale to a University professor, so we used an edited ESV for Comp Lit.

Abraham and Issac demonstrated we do not sacrifice our children.
"God provided the sacrifice". Yes indeed He did.
Did the children of Israel or America respect the simple Law " Thou shalt not murder"?

We must teach the whole Bible starting with Genesis.
The first sin is coveting, we want what we cannot have,
then we find out impulsive behavior ends badly.
Our Bible is the only Truth in a post-truth world,
Good News for them who will hear it.
"... all Scripture..."

Yep, from beginning to end, scripture (including the revealing) is there for us to understand.

[Thundarstick]

I opened this eschatology discussion some time back. I've listened and read 100s of hours of commentary (all by experts,[not you guys] ), and I've discovered they all have one thing in common, EVERY ONE OF THEM. Anyone want to guess what the one statement they ALL make at one time or another is?

[Good Cheer]

Nope, but I'd love to hear it!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I opened this eschatology discussion some time back. I've listened and read 100s of hours of commentary (all by experts,[not you guys] ), and I've discovered they all have one thing in common, EVERY ONE OF THEM. Anyone want to guess what the one statement they ALL make at one time or another is?

"...but it could be interpreted another way."

[Thundarstick]

I Think or I Believe!

Every one of them, on any side, get to a place and say, "I think or I believe", this is what this passage means, this is how A relates to B, etc,etc,etc.

This CLEARLY indicates NONE of them know! They ALL (just like us) THINK, or BELIEVE they know.

I'm a KISS person and when one has to perform all kinds of scriptural acrobatics to arrive at a predetermined conclusion, I'm skeptical. You may be completely ok with acrobatics, but the truth is what you believe or think you know.

I've enjoyed reading the discussion of others beliefs.

[1hole]

"...but it could be interpreted another way."

Yeah, interpretations do vary but in our present society of constantly offended dummies, simply telling kids to study and work hard now for a better life later is being interpreted as "racist" and "white power". Today's stoopid people can and do misinterpret banal things in stoopid ways. But non-stoopid people have no duty to pretend to accept and respect the obviously stoopid errors of determined idiots. Especially so for scripture.

[.429&H110]

"Faith comes by hearing..."

Do you believe to have faith or have faith to believe?

Why Revelation?
Agape.

Paul's Greeks had to be taught love, and so do we.
A mother cat loves her kittens by instinct, born that way,
as Rhett said to Scarlett, "A cat is a better mother than you".

Hugh Hefner had an opinion on love, and made it stick, the media loved him.
Hef had a very low opinion of women, he was the hero of eros, and died with a lot of toys.
Now we have a generation obsessed with what women look like.

God is bringing us back to Him because He loves us.
We have to learn what agape means to God.
Our opinions don't much matter.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Yeah, interpretations do vary but in our present society of constantly offended dummies, simply telling kids to study and work hard now for a better life later is being interpreted as "racist" and "white power". Today's stoopid people can and do misinterpret banal things in stoopid ways. But non-stoopid people have no duty to pretend to accept and respect the obviously stoopid errors of determined idiots. Especially so for scripture.

I'm not understanding your point, do you have one?

I was just making a guess at what the common statement is, by most experts.

[1hole]

My point is, pointing out that there are diverse opinions on everything doesn't mean anything inventive men can devise is automatically right or wrong no matter how popular or unpopular the idea may be.

The mental contortions some people go through to "prove there will be no Rapture" is a popular example of man's bad theology. The truth of the Rapture is not hidden, read John 14:3 and 1 Thes 4:17 and just accept that it means what it says.

Bottom line, God's truth in scripture is true. Paul wrote what he was inspired by God to write and that's not subject to being overruled any by man's popular vote. No matter what some expert men say, the Rapture IS coming and, as a "SURPRISE!" event, it must come pre-Tribulation.

[.429&H110]

Yes indeed God promised.

First choose Jesus!
Then it is our job to live God's promise.
"to have a ready answer"
"feed my sheep"
"sell your cloak and buy a sword"

Some of us have alarm clocks to wake us up.
Some just snooze their life away.

Only the Holy Spirit saves souls, tiptoes past sleeping hardened hearts
we must be alarm clocks and awake the woke.

[Alabama358]

Bottom line, God's truth in scripture is true. Paul wrote what he was inspired by God to write and that's not subject to being overruled any by man's popular vote. No matter what some expert men say, the Rapture IS coming and, as a "SURPRISE!" event, it must come pre-Tribulation.

Paul also wrote regarding the rapture (and I am quoting the inspired word of GOD almighty, not paraphrasing)

1Thessalonians 5: 2-5 KJV
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

So, if we read this as it is written...

A) Folks that believe that this awesome day will not overtake them as a thief (not saying they know the hour or the day, so do not erect that straw man argument) are "children of the light" "and children of the day"

B) Folks that believe this awesome day has to be a complete "SURPRISE" and overtake them as a thief in the night are children "of the night" and children "of the darkness"

If you don't want to take Paul's word for it... what did Jesus have to say about it?

Matthew 24: 32-33
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

So the LORD gives a preview of the events that will unfold before the day he returns to collect his elect and clearly is NOT saying this "Could happen at any moment" or "It has to be a Total SURPRISE" John Nelson Darby doctrine.

On the contrary he is saying that "WHEN" you ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
The LORD makes it clear that only the Father knows the day and the hour... However he says that we will know when the rapture is near, Even at the doors. anyone that reads that and says that it has to be pre-trib because it has to be a total surprise is just regurgitating doctrines of men and not the teachings of the LORD.

Matthew 15:9
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

[1hole]

Paul also wrote regarding the rapture (and I am quoting the inspired word of GOD almighty, not paraphrasing).

You start by implying a fallacy of the inerrancy of the 1611 KJV but you should know that God did not give us a Bible written in King James' English. (In fact, English wasn't even a language when the spirit led authors put their pens to scrolls.)

Languages change over time. A lot of KJV words no longer mean what they once meant. Thing is, scripture didn't start with King James' translation edict and scripture didn't get frozen in time in 1611.

The book you call the KJV has had at least three major revisions and many small ones over the years but it's never been fully corrected.

In reality, everyone who knows another language is aware that ALL translations between any two languages are and MUST be paraphrased for at least two reasons. First, there are often no direct matching words to translate. Second, each language has unique grammar and figures of speech that often make any so-called "word for word" translation impossible to comprehend.

Darby? Paul didn't know Darby; neither do you. No one inserted the words of the Rapture (or any other orthodox doctrines) into the scriptures so Darby could eventually use it to confuse people who feel good about being confused.

[.429&H110]

I want to apologize for thread hijack.
I get exercised on the subject, this afternoon will be spent on it.

A Bible study has to tiptoe past the rabbit holes and distractions.

I was taught the Bible is a mistranslated collection of Jewish folk tales.
But. I believe the Bible was written by the Holy Spirit using called out men and women
mostly in Koine Greek as an Owner's Manual. Both ideas cannot be correct.
If you do not trust the translation, check out the Greek interlinear.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

from Post #101, 06-04-2022, 12:10 PM

First, God's end times plans are his and that doesn't depend on us believing anything. Those poor folk who are not spiritually "born again" at the Rapture are, by definition, not the Bride of Christ and nothing else matters. There is nothing in scripture to support the odd idea that "some born again folk will go this way and some will go that way" at the pre-trib Rapture, depending on what they believe.

Bottom line, Jesus says his followers will be raised in perfection but non-believers clearly will not and, from that, we can deduce that no believers will ever be left behind. (Matt 7:27 and on) ???

Who will be the primary world wide evangelical witness team during the Tribulation? God's 144,000 selected, protected and empowered Jews! (Rev 7:1-10)

I'm seeing nothing in Jesus' words, in Matt 7:21 thru 7:28 about being raised. If fact, what I do see, is what I see that follows throughout the entire bible, that we (the believers) will all go through tribulations and He (Jesus) will comfort us. Just like Shadrach Meshach and Abednego, Jesus comforted their tribulation in the furnace. I've read no where in the bible that would be any different in the Great Tribulation.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

[1hole]

I want to apologize for thread hijack.

No apology is needed. After some 136 posts the original subject has been beaten to death so a bit of drift is acceptable.

A Bible study has to tiptoe past the rabbit holes and distractions.

I disagree. Tiptoeing around Biblical disagreements to avoid disagreement is a large part of what has brought us to this present state of determined confusion. Truth demands we courteously state what we we believe and WHY! Only in honest give and take can we resolve error; tiptoeing just doesn't get it.

I was taught the Bible is a mistranslated collection of Jewish folk tales.

A lot of us have been told a lot of spiritual nonsense by a lot of spiritually ignorant bible "experts". I've learned to ignore them.

But. I believe the Bible was written by the Holy Spirit using called out men and women mostly in Koine Greek as an Owner's Manual.

Don't know of any Spirit led female scripture writers but if you add a bit of old-time Hebrew and Aramaic you'll have them all.[/quote]

If you do not trust the translation, check out the Greek interlinear.

Right.

A lot of people buy "side-by-side" Bible versions so they can see in one volume how 3 or 4 translation teams see things. Perhaps the most critical thing I learned in word studies is that the words change in versions but the message from any orthodox Bible remains true to the oldest texts we have. IN fact, except so-called "bibles" from sects like Jehovah Witness, Mormons, Adventists and Christian Science, I believe any modern translation (or, dare I say it, a paraphrase) is very good. So ... I eventually quite chasing around after individual word choices in the various translation versions and started following the actual message that is given.

[.429&H110]

1Corinthians 13:12

"For now we see through a glass, darkly;
but then face to face:
now I know in part;
but then shall I know
even as I am known."

Amen

[.429&H110]

Oh and as far as women and church, I can speculate and assume...I believe Priscilla and Aquila over in Acts 18 helped Apollos, Prisca sat there in church, wrote down Apollos' sermons, edited them with the Holy Spirit as Paul wrote Hebrews. First half of Hebrews was written by Priscilla, a woman. Maybe. Book of Luke has the Nativity. Luke wasn't there. Our Lord's mother Mary was there, and again, elderly Mary, Luke and the Holy Spirit turned out Mary's part of Luke. Maybe.

Paul got in trouble with the Greek housewives, and America has plenty of that sort that would hijack a church into a party, and so Paul's warning about women teaching still holds true.