Need help with a 30-30 plinking load

[geargnasher]

Larry, I'm familiar with that article and I get how the binary and ternary alloys form their structures, and how what forms first is determined by percentage, but I never thought that pure lead nodules would contribute to "leading". If you add a bunch of tin to suck up the Sb and form mostly Sb/Sn, is that intermetallic compound not functioning independent of the lead? I realize that in certain proportions, like around Lyman #2, the lead still freezes first followed by the Sb/Sn, but when you get over a certain amount, IIRC that would be proportions higher than the ternary eutectic point, the Sb/Sn again freezes first causing brittleness and lead exclusion.

Is the goal for a ternary alloy resistant to "leading" to use proportions only in which the lead freezes first (WW, WW+2%Sn, Hardball, Lyman#2, etc.) and the Sb isn't given a chance to form dentrites?

Gear

[Centaur 1]

Heck I was going to suggest you keep loading what you have but cut the last 4" off your barrel.

This gun is just too darm pretty to start cutting, buuuut I've been keeping my eyes open for a used and abused old Marlin to do just that. I want one so bad I can taste it. I'm planning on cutting the barrel to 16 1/8", add a large loop lever, paint it with duracoat, refinish the stock with antique oil, put on an XS rail and ghost ring sights, and top it off with a low power scout scope.

[Rocky Raab]

Better make that 16 ½" The BATFE sometimes uses a funky yardstick. They ain't NASA.

I never get leading in my 24" Savage 340 .30-30. I use (depending on my whim) straight LLA, straight JPW, or the popular 45/45/10 mix - always dusted with mica. Cast 150 to 170-gr bullets shot plain-based over 6-7 grains of almost any fast pistol powder from Bullseye to Green Dot give me just under 1200 fps for a great plinker load. 700X seems most accurate in my rifle.

For full power, I slap a gas check on and load over 16.0 2400 or 20.0 5744. They depart the premises at 2000 fps.

[Centaur 1]

That's the second person to say 6 grains of bullseye. My new starting point is going to be 6 grains of BE with a 1 grain tuft of dacron. I pan lubed my boolits this afternoon with the barry darr lube. I also smoothed the edge on my home made kake cutter, I was shaving a little lead when I tried to cut the first batch from the lube pan, the ones that I lubed today look good. I also made a play date with a friend of mine to go to the indoor range on Sunday afternoon. I'll post my results when I get back, thanks again everyone for all of your help.

[Recluse]

I've used that 45/45/10 for some 170FN boolits loaded for plinking and had no leading--but I also had the boolits gas-checked.

However, I've taken that same 45/45/10 and added some of randyrat's beeswax to it to form a stick lube and then sized/lubed without gas checks and fired away with zero leading and a clean bore--I used 7 grains of Unique. Felt like I was shooting a .22 rifle.

You can use that same concoction (the tumble-lube mix hardened with beeswax) and it makes an excellent pain-lubing formula.

[Larry Gibson]

Centaur 1

You don't need the tuft of dacron with Bullseye. It ignites easily in the 30-30 case and with that bullet it will not be position sensitive especially with 6 gr. I use 2.7 gr Bullseye under a 90 gr SWC by the thousands without any problems. I also regularly use 6 gr with the RCBS 150 gr cast bullet without a filler or wad.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

Larry, I was throwing the Dacron recommendation out there NOT to aid combustion or locate powder, I was recommending it specifically for the side effect it has with PB boolits and light/medium charges of pistol powders: For whatever reason, it can significantly reduce leading, increase velocity slightly, and improve groups. I agree it isn't needed for the powder. Most of the time it isn't needed at all. I don't use it much either in .30-30 unless I'm loading plinkers with no gas checks, it's worth it for the accuracy improvement and the bore cleanliness, and is much cheaper than gas checks. The only way to know for sure if it will help is to try it both ways and see what happens at his shooting range, you know how that goes!

Gear

[Bret4207]

In high antimony content alloys with little tin the some of the antimony crystalizes seperate from the lead when the alloy begins to solidify. This seperation of lead from the antimony, even in small amounts, causes leading. The addition of tin increases the castbility and maintains the antimony in suspension during the cooling period. It is explained, though not very clear to many, in Dennis marshals article The Metallurgy of Molten Lead Alloys in Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook.

It is probably exacerbated by Centaur 1's WQing the bullets. That is not needed nor desired for such low pressure PB cast bullet loads.

Larry Gibson

Larry and Mods- this post (not the whole thread) and anything else in this line needs to be stickied. A little more discussion and information would help. Excellent information and put in understandable terms- thanks Larry!

[Larry Gibson]

Gear

I'm sure you know I am a proponant of the use of dacron - as a filler. In this case he is talking about using it as a "wad'. While I don't consider their being a "ringing" danger with dacron as a wad there is another problem.

With rounds that are single fed there is no problem. However with loads that are fed from the magazine the recoil can cause the wad to shift forward and the powder can migrate around and into the dacron. Serious hang fires and squib loads can result. I know this for a fact as it happened to me on a regular basis years ago. That is the reason I went from a dacron wad to a filler. If the filler is not necessary then I do not use it. With such loads using Bullseye I have not seen any benifit in ignition to a dacron wad. With some other powders the wad does give somewhat better ignition depending on the powder/load/psi. Not having to use a wad with Bullseye is also why I am a main proponant of it's use with such loads.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

I never read where Centaur wad planning on using Dacron as a wad, if this is a side conversation, I missed it. Again, my suggestion on using it, per my post #7, was NOT to aid powder positioning, or combustion, or to make the case smaller. That's what we normally use it for, but it ALSO can act as a gas seal in light loads with unchecked boolits and help prevent leading.

From post #7: " If that doesn't cure it, add a one-grain tuft of Dacron fluffed in the case to fill the space between the boolit base and powder, DON'T pack it down tight against the powder, this *can* cause chamber rings. Another member here recently had leading near the breech end with a .32 Win Spl. using Unique, Red Dot, and plain-based boolits. Just adding Dacron cured his problem, although he was using commercial boolits prelubed."

I went back and reread the OP, and I'm trying to figure out how range lead, with 50% soft jacketed cores and 50% cast (presumbably mostly commercial hardball) has so much antimony. I get that you're using similar stuff, and I'm sure it needs tin, but up to 5% more tin? What am I missing here? That alloy ought to be no more than 3% antimony with 1% or less tin, so aren't you in danger of overtinning the alloy? Seems to me that, if anything, there is too little antimony there. Antimonial "wash" is what I've come to expect from high-antimony alloys, but I'm not convinced that the "wash" is due to antimony, perhaps it's rogue pure lead sloughing off from between the antimony crystals as you say, or maybe just graphite from the gunpowder. That's another subject on which I'd really like to hear some expert input.

My experience with Dacron, though not nearly as extensive as yours, has been different with regard to powder migrating. You and I might be installing it in the case differently. Six grains of Bullseye under a 150-grain boolit in a .30-30 doesn't have enough recoil to move the cartridges in the magazine in my Marlin, much less shift the powder. I don't use Dacron as a "wad", per se, I carefully install it and fluff it inside the case with a 3/16" brass rod so it goes all the way down to the powder but has an even density all the way up to the boolit base. I've never ringed a chamber, and as the theories behind what can cause it make sense to me, I am VERY careful when using any sort of low-density filler so hopefully it won't happen. I did a similar test as some others had on this forum by cutting away part of a "dummy" case with spent primer and boolit crimped, the powder and Dacron filler installed and the cutaway covered with a piece of acetate taped in place. Carried it i my pocket at work for a week, no significant migration of powder resulted, so I loaded it in the magazine first and fired the other five rounds and checked it again, not even any nose deformation, and still no increase in powder migration. Not saying it can't happen, it most certainly can, but so far I've had good luck with it NOT using it as a wad, but fluffed evenly throughout the empty space in the case.

Gear

[JIMinPHX]

Larry, I'm familiar with that article and I get how the binary and ternary alloys form their structures, and how what forms first is determined by percentage, but I never thought that pure lead nodules would contribute to "leading". If you add a bunch of tin to suck up the Sb and form mostly Sb/Sn, is that intermetallic compound not functioning independent of the lead? I realize that in certain proportions, like around Lyman #2, the lead still freezes first followed by the Sb/Sn, but when you get over a certain amount, IIRC that would be proportions higher than the ternary eutectic point, the Sb/Sn again freezes first causing brittleness and lead exclusion.

Is the goal for a ternary alloy resistant to "leading" to use proportions only in which the lead freezes first (WW, WW+2%Sn, Hardball, Lyman#2, etc.) and the Sb isn't given a chance to form dentrites?

Gear

Gear, it sounds like you've dug into this matter a bit. Might you recommend some reading materials for a less-informed fella that wishes to improve his general knowledge on the subject?

[Centaur 1]

I never read where Centaur wad planning on using Dacron as a wad, if this is a side conversation, I missed it. Again, my suggestion on using it, per my post #7, was NOT to aid powder positioning, or combustion, or to make the case smaller. That's what we normally use it for, but it ALSO can act as a gas seal in light loads with unchecked boolits and help prevent leading.

From post #7: " If that doesn't cure it, add a one-grain tuft of Dacron fluffed in the case to fill the space between the boolit base and powder, DON'T pack it down tight against the powder, this *can* cause chamber rings. Another member here recently had leading near the breech end with a .32 Win Spl. using Unique, Red Dot, and plain-based boolits. Just adding Dacron cured his problem, although he was using commercial boolits prelubed."

Gear

I did decide to try the dacron. I loaded ten rounds today with 6 gr BE, 1 gr dacron fluffed and I pan lubed the boolits. I also loaded five more but with 7 gr of unique. I'm supposed to go shooting on Sunday and I'll post my results.

[Larry Gibson]

geargnasher

I never read where Centaur wad planning on using Dacron as a wad, if this is a side conversation, I missed it. Again, my suggestion on using it, per my post #7, was NOT to aid powder positioning, or combustion, or to make the case smaller. That's what we normally use it for, but it ALSO can act as a gas seal in light loads with unchecked boolits and help prevent leading.

centaur mentions he is going to use a "1 gr tuft of dacron" in post #24. With only 6 gr of Bullseye in the case my experience tells me 1 gr of dacron is not going to be a "filler". I was addressing centaur's post, not yours. Your further instructions in your post #7 were correct on how to properly use dacron. However, my point here is that with Bullseye neither a filler nor a wad are necessary.

I went back and reread the OP, and I'm trying to figure out how range lead, with 50% soft jacketed cores and 50% cast (presumbably mostly commercial hardball) has so much antimony. I get that you're using similar stuff, and I'm sure it needs tin, but up to 5% more tin? What am I missing here? That alloy ought to be no more than 3% antimony with 1% or less tin, so aren't you in danger of overtinning the alloy? Seems to me that, if anything, there is too little antimony there. Antimonial "wash" is what I've come to expect from high-antimony alloys, but I'm not convinced that the "wash" is due to antimony, perhaps it's rogue pure lead sloughing off from between the antimony crystals as you say, or maybe just graphite from the gunpowder. That's another subject on which I'd really like to hear some expert input.

The lead cores of a lot of jacketed hardball contain a lot of antimony. That plus the usual high amount in "hard cast" commercial bullets is where range lead from pistol ranges in particular has a high % of antimony. Then if a large # of .22LR are also fired on the range that also contributes to the antimony. If only WWs is used on the range as an alloy then your % are close to correct. My alloy came off 2 indoor military ranges where a lot of 9mm and 45 hardball was used. .22LR was also shot extensively out of m261 devices in M16A1s. The ranges were also used by local police and civilian small bore shooters. The conglomeration of all of those adds up to a lot more antimony than is needed. Wheter the leading "wash" from the alloy is lead or antimony I do not know as I've no way of analysing it. I do know that i went through a bit of experimenting and found that the adding of 5 % tin makes for very nice and easy to cast bullets. The BHN is 12 - 14 and they WQ to 20 -24 BHN. They also do not lead or "wash" anymore up through 1800 fps with the air cooled ones.

My experience with Dacron, though not nearly as extensive as yours, has been different with regard to powder migrating. You and I might be installing it in the case differently. Six grains of Bullseye under a 150-grain boolit in a .30-30 doesn't have enough recoil to move the cartridges in the magazine in my Marlin, much less shift the powder. I don't use Dacron as a "wad", per se, I carefully install it and fluff it inside the case with a 3/16" brass rod so it goes all the way down to the powder but has an even density all the way up to the boolit base. I've never ringed a chamber, and as the theories behind what can cause it make sense to me, I am VERY careful when using any sort of low-density filler so hopefully it won't happen. I did a similar test as some others had on this forum by cutting away part of a "dummy" case with spent primer and boolit crimped, the powder and Dacron filler installed and the cutaway covered with a piece of acetate taped in place. Carried it i my pocket at work for a week, no significant migration of powder resulted, so I loaded it in the magazine first and fired the other five rounds and checked it again, not even any nose deformation, and still no increase in powder migration. Not saying it can't happen, it most certainly can, but so far I've had good luck with it NOT using it as a wad, but fluffed evenly throughout the empty space in the case.

My posts were simply information to centaur and no way reflect on your loading abilitys. Now let me tell of my experience with wads moving and powders; the real offenders were with heavier loads. However, a long time ago my favorite plinker load before i started using the 90 gr SWCs was a PB 150 gr bullets I would get cast, unsized and unlubed from the old Liberty Cast Bullet Company. My favorite load was that bullet sized .310 and lubed with javelina over 5.5 gr Bullseye with probably a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron wad. It ran about 1100 fps out of my M94 carbine and was deadly on small game, particularly grouse. Noise was minimal and recoil seemed nil. The first occurence was when I was out shooting small ground squirrels. I had filled up the tube and as i shot would top off the tube. The 1st 2 or maybe 3 rounds were in the tube for probably 20 - 30 shots and about 2 hours walk about jostling. When I fired those last rounds I had 2 quick hang fires and a real long "click"......"bang" . Having already experience and cured the same situation with heavier recoiling loads I suspected what the problem was. I set out to find out. IA few days later I loaded the rifle and shot it pretty much the same not shooting the 1st 3 rounds in the tube, it was a good excuse to go shoot some more squirrels I took those 3 rounds home and pulled the bullets. The wad had shifted forward on all of them and 2 of them had about half of the Bullseye in front of the wad next to the bullet.

Now, if you go out and load the tube with these loads and shoot all the rounds it the wad might not move and the powder won't then migrate. But you really won't know until you do get a "click, bang". My point being is that with just a tudge more powder the same accuracy and performance can be had without the dacron in wad or filler form.

Centaur has some test loads with the 1 gr of dacron and I expect they should do ok. They may be a little fast though. If he insists on the dacron then I suggest dropping back and testing 5 and 5.5 gr of Bullseye. Without the dacron 6 gr of Bullseye should work very well.

Larry Gibson

[jimb16]

Who's in for a discussion of solidus/liquidus curves?

[felix]

What do you have in mind? Keep in mind we use junk metals and there is no valid way of measurement of quality or quantity (volume/weight at temp) at home. ... felix

[geargnasher]

+1 Felix. Have you ever cast with a eutectic alloy? I haven't. Pretty close, but never right on, too many variables. Same goes with the scrap I cast with, I add tin, near-pure lead, or high-antimony alloy (type metal) to adjust hardess and castability on a "lot" basis to get about what I want, but in the end who knows what it really is.

Now a good discussion would be about what it is that we want, and are using as a goal when alloying.

Jimb16, I , too am interested in what you have in mind, how about starting a new thread in the "Alloys" forum?

Gear

[felix]

Like you, Gear, close but no cigar. The lino I have is not quite there, but for all practical purposes you can say it is/was Lino with a very quick freeze point. Corky (Sundog) and I made some by accident once, but it was like the Lino I had. Not quite there, in other words. Makes casting a breeze in 90 degree hot weather, but the freeze point of Lino is too low for 55 degree cold/cool weather 22 fabrication. ... felix

[Centaur 1]

Larry, I appreciate the help. I'm not wanting to use the dacron, I'm just willing to try it if it will stop the barrel from leading. I just want to plink with my deer rifle, which should make me a better shot with it. If I can create a load that is accurate enough i would use it for squirrels too. It would be even nicer if it shot to the same point of impact as my jacketed deer loads, for those mornings when no deer are moving so I can shoot a few squirrels before going home.

Eutectic alloy, years ago I used to cast my own diamond jigs out of cerrobend. I was deep sea fishing for bluefish using my freshwater trout gear and 6 pound test line. I hated eating bluefish so I didn't care if I lost them on the way in, but I hated losing the diamond jigs. So I machined a mold to make my own lures, but I didn't have a way to chrome plate them. I learned that bismuth, which is the main ingredient in cerrobend, doesn't oxidize in salt water as quickly as lead, and it would melt in a double boiler at about 158 degrees. I still have a couple pounds of bismuth out in the garage. Maybe someone here will have an idea what to use it for.

[geargnasher]

You can make boolits out of it, but they are very brittle, and bismuth is like $15/lb now, so I'd hang on to it or trade it to someone who wants it more than you do.

You DO NOT have to use Dacron at all, like Larry said, it was just a suggestion to try if you want to soley to help the leading issue. I had rather go without it because it adds about a minute per round reloading time. If everything is in good order as far as having an alloy in the right ballpark, a good lube, good boolit fit to the gun, and a set of reloading dies that expand the case neck the correct amoung to not swage the boolits undersized when seated, then there is no need for Dacron with Bullseye. If you push the envelope a bit with 150-grainers and Unique, the filler may help gas seal a bit. Go ahead and shoot what you have, it will be good experience to have and might give you some idea of the difference it can make.

Gear

[Reddog177]

I've used a pea sized ball of dacron in my 30/30 loads for years. I have an old Ted Williams in which I load a 180 gr. 311291GC over either 16.0 gr. 2400 or 23.0 gr. BLC-2. Accuracy is good at 75 yds with iron sights and have never had a hangfire. I usually single load. I've never found any trace of the dacron after firing. I suppose it's consumed at that time?
I have an iron coyote hanging at 100 yds which is great fun to shoot standing, offhand.
Dick