Should lube stay in groves or blow off

[Bob.]

Well I'm learning more about lube with all the info in this thread, but I got to thinkin.
I remember seeing about all the Carnauba Red still on the Mihec 45 HPs after shooting them in wet pack.
I just went back to the post of the wet pack results and copied this picture.
It was a short distance but still after the boolit was almost turned inside out the lube was still there.
I've used C-Red on a few pistol calibers 380, 357, 40 and 45 and it works good with no leading.
I did try a few 40 175 gn with BAC and they did seem a little more accurate with the few I tried.
Now I'm wondering if it was more accurate from the lube spinning off at the muzzle ?
Need to do more serious accuracy test with both lubes I guess.




Bob

[geargnasher]

Bob, you probably can't tell much difference whether the lube spins off of of a .45 ACP or not, because these problems show up well beyond the practical effective range of that cartridge.

That picture is a perfect example of matching the lube to the caliber and velocity. Carnauba Red is way overkill for subsonic loads and most things under 25k psi (my rough estimate), and the fact that it stayed on indicates that. BAC, Felix lube, lithi-bee, LBT soft, and NRA 50/50 are all excellent choices for lower-pressure pistol loads.

At this point I'm sure lots of people will jump all over me and argue that their guns shoot great with rock-hard lube at 750 fps, and if they do, well, what can I say? If it is working for you, then keep it up. But if you have a .30-'06 thats blowing groups when you push it over 2200 fps, partial lube retention is one of the things you should check.

Gear


Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Gear

I mentioned this topic on another thread (shall remain nameless) and got a lot of guff over it. A couple understood what was happening and agreeed that this was a problem, especially with higher velocity/RPM loads. I was amazed at those who support the contention that weighing and sorting bullets to the nearest .1 gr were adament that losing .5 gr lube off one side of the bullet during flight would and could not upset its balance and cause inacuracy. That boggled my mind.

I've always used Javelina (or other NRA 50/50 formula) lubes with HV loads and did not have the problem. I knew from the lube on chronograph screens and close targets (20') that the lube was all spininning off right out of the muzzle. Only in recent years when I started experimenting with the harder lubes at HV did I begin encountering this problem. In the tests in the last thread I collected numerous samples of the lube off of the chronograph screens. Some of them were the circumference length of the bullets lube groove indicating that all of the lube, at least in that one groove, had spun off. However, there were many many smaller lengths of lube that were indicating only chunks of lube from the grooves were spinning of at different times. That definately would unbalance the bullet and cause inaccuracy. Also, as we know, the higher the RPM the greater the centrifugal force and the greater the inaccuracy caused from such imbalances in the bullets.

Obviously the higher the velocity/RPM the more exasperated the problem becomes. Those shooting at lower velocities most often just don't see the problem because it's not there. There is not enough RPM/centrifugal force to throw off the harder lube and it stays on the bullet all the way to the target/impact and even after. Such is evidenced by the nemerous bullets most of us have recovered and the photos presented here. It's not a case of proving one way or another that it happens or does not happen. It is simply a case of understanding when it happens.

I think you, BABore and a couple others have stated the problem, when it occurs, well.

Larry Gibson

[BABore]

The lube I've been using lately is is slightly modified version of 357Max's MML lube. This is basically an updated version of the old Lithi-Bee formula. The biggest deviation is the use of Microcrystalline wax. Max's first rendition used micro-wax entirely along with grease and some parafine as a stiffener. I couldn't handle it in my heated, pressurized, Saeco sizer. It was firm, about like LBT soft, but turned to goose chit when warmed even slightly. We both ended up adding beeswax in place of a portion of the micro-wax in later recipes. This solved the sizer issues. On my latest batch I kept it real soft. Softer than NRA 50/50. It still works well in my sizer, but is a PITA on the boolits as they tend to stick to each other real well. But, oh does it shoot. And it comes off the boolit real quick after exiting the muzzle. Almost a mist a few feet off the bbl. So far, I haven't seen any on the chronograph. I have tested it in quite a few guns where I have had issues with weird flyers. One I have suspected as being from lube issues. Most all of them have responded well.

To combat the stickness issue with this soft lube, I have been tumbling the boolits in motor mica when needed. Both myself and 357Max have noted the motor mica (MM) affect in our favorite 357 plinker boolit/load. These boolits have a single, thinned coat of alox. When dried, they are tumbled in MM to prevent the stickies. We both have shot them without MM and have noted the difference in accuracy. They always do better with it. Recently I chronographed some 357 Max loads I had worked up with Alliant 300-MP. I was quite impressed with the velocity and the ES of 9.8 fps. What even impressed me more was the identical loads I chronographed that had an ES of 2.2 fps. Both loads used the real soft, modified MML lube. The later ones were tumbled in MM. 5-shot groups with both loads also showed those coated with MM grouped tighter. More testing is underway on this.

[Bob.]

Bob, you probably can't tell much difference whether the lube spins off of of a .45 ACP or not, because these problems show up well beyond the practical effective range of that cartridge.

That picture is a perfect example of matching the lube to the caliber and velocity. Carnauba Red is way overkill for subsonic loads and most things under 25k psi (my rough estimate), and the fact that it stayed on indicates that. BAC, Felix lube, lithi-bee, LBT soft, and NRA 50/50 are all excellent choices for lower-pressure pistol loads.

At this point I'm sure lots of people will jump all over me and argue that their guns shoot great with rock-hard lube at 750 fps, and if they do, well, what can I say? If it is working for you, then keep it up. But if you have a .30-'06 thats blowing groups when you push it over 2200 fps, partial lube retention is one of the things you should check.

Gear


Gear

Well I guess I like the C-red because it's not so sticky so if it doesn't affect accuracy on a slow low pressure 45 I'll probably keep using it.
I'm pretty new to shooting lead, so far I've used the C-red, BAC and NRA 50/50 but never done any serious accuracy testing with different lubes.
But I will !

Thanks for the info !

Bob

[ELFEGO BACA]

i have a hard time believing at most a couple of grains of lube can affect the accuracy of a 500 to 520 grain 45/70 bullet.

[geargnasher]

i have a hard time believing at most a couple of grains of lube can affect the accuracy of a 500 to 520 grain 45/70 bullet.

Your "belief" has nothing to do with it.

Gear

[BABore]

Here's a simple test for you. Lube up some of your 500 grain, 45-70 slugs with a nice stiff lube like Caranuba Red. Shoot several 5-shot groups with your favorite load at 200+ yards and record the results. Now load up a duplicate set of loads, BUT this time remove the lube from one half of each boolit along its longitudinal axis. Let us know how you make out.