38-55 Cb

[Singletree]

Gentlemen,
I purchased a 38-55 CB for the expressed purpose of shooting cast bullets at cowboy action side matchs. Gun wouldn't group. Bought a new Saeco mold that will throw bullets to .382, gun bore measures .381. Gun won't group.Tried every load advertised in loading data books, most of twenty one different powders I now have on the shelf. Gun won't group. Called Marlin service, told the lady the rifles bore looked like the broach had wobbled its way down the bore, creating a wavey and rough bore. She said send it in. I did, rifle came back after being tested with jacketed factory ammo, which shot fine. Gun wouldn't shoot cast. Called lady again, after about twenty minutes of explaining to her, she still didn't understand I needed to shoot cast bullets in the gun. She finally said Service manager was out for the day but I could leave a message. Service manager was in afterall (surprise, surprise), Mr Tim Looney. I had a nice chat with him, very knowledgable. He said he could tell I wasn't happy with the gun as it wouldn't shoot the required cast bullet and that he would rebarrel it with a hand picked one that he would select himself if I again would return the rifle to the factory. Told him I already had $28 in postage and didn't want to again spend money on postage if it wouldn't be fixed. Mr. Looney said to send gun to his attention and it would be fixed and if I would send the receipt for postage, he would pay that to. Happy Days. Sent the gun, after a month or so gun comes back. Repair statement says " my servie request is not allowed by adjustment standards". No check for postage. Gun won't group. $56 in postage.
If any on the board could offer advice, it would very much be appreciated.
Singletree

[waksupi]

To start out, I'll suggest "Beagling" the mold, to throw a slightly larger slug. It just may need more girth. Air cool the bullets with WW's or softer alloy. I do suspect the slugs are still undersize for the bore.

[Dr. A]

Thats bit discouraging. My experience was with Mr. Looney as well. I sent in a 1894C that would tumble cast at anything over 1100fps. I paid postage one way, but they quickly replaced the barrel. Mr. Looney tested it and sent me a hand written note with his test results. The new gun shoots extremely well. I would get bigger bullets one way or another.

[KCSO]

Singletree
They do make some of them that shoot cast. I had one and it slugged 379 in the bore and wuld put 5 shots on a 10 " gong at 300 yards. My best groups were with the Lee 250 gr bullet and with good peep sights i was shooting consistantly under 2" at 100 yards. A Trooper friend of mine now has the gun and between us we have put over 500 rounds of cast bullets through the gun and everything except bullets from an original Winchester mould have shot at least passing groups. Marlin can fix the problem for you if you can get through to someone who knows their stuff.

[45 2.1]

The Saeco molds are tapered. Cast from it with about 8 BHN lead (ww/2 + pure lead/ 2), don't size just lube and try with top load of Unique.

[Singletree]

Thanks Guys,
I was hoping that maybe someone knew a contact at Marlin that possibly cared about their product. I just returned from the range with the gun. Two loads to try. 50 yards, off the bench, 3x9 scope. The load it didn't like came within half a bullet hole of not staying on the target, about a 10 inch group. The remaining load held 5 inches for 10 shots. The hotter the barrel the better it shot. I haven't much hope for the barrel, it is really a mess. I have looked thru a lot of Thompson-Center barrels that were rough, but this barrel resembles more than anything a timber that has been squared with a broad axe. Same chipped out finish.
I reckon I'll call Mr. Looney again Monday. I like the gun but it needs to shoot something like KSCO and Dr. A suggests.
Singletree

[grumble]

Singletree, I agree with your plan of action. If it were me, I'd make the decision whether to lap the bore myself or take it to the mat with Marlin. After going through all your tribulations, I think I'd make myself as much of a pest to Marlin as I possibly could, just for pride.

I'd call your Mr Looney (gotta chuckle a bit at that name) back and politely let him know I was unhappy with Marlin's service in general, and his neglected promise to you in particular. I'd guess that somehow your gun slipped through the cracks on its last visit to their service center, and that he'll be more than willing to clear his name. I think I'd demand that they send you advance shipping, either with a FedEx prepaid shipping slip, or by check for them to make it good, though.

It wouldn't hurt to let Mr Looney know that you belong to several gun-oriented internet chat foura, and you're not a bit shy about linking him personally, and Marlin in general, to poor quality and service. Not many people like to be named publicly, and companies sure don't like to have noisy dissatisfied customers maligning them at every turn. A letter to upper corporate management doesn't hurt either.

[Bass Ackward]

The load it didn't like came within half a bullet hole of not staying on the target, about a 10 inch group. The remaining load held 5 inches for 10 shots. The hotter the barrel the better it shot.

I haven't much hope for the barrel, it is really a mess. Singletree

Singletree,

I .... have seen some pretty bad barrels shoot well.

In fact, sometimes the bad barrels have places to hold excess lube. What happens is that you get an over lube condition and the loads shoot better the hotter that barrel gets. Ideally, what I like to see is a bullet of ACWW about .002 over bore with not a lot of lube capacity because the 38-55 can almost be shot without any at it's low pressures.

So don't worry about what size your bore is, worry about how big your throat is and fill it with what it is crying for. If that is .004 over, then soften your bullet to about 8 BHN. Hope this helps.

[grumble]

"...So don't worry about what size your bore is, worry about how big your throat is and fill it with what it is crying for. If that is .004 over, then soften your bullet to about 8 BHN..."

Good advice. But, if a rough bore will shoot well, then a lapped bore should shoot even better. First choice would be for Marlin to live up to their promise (and reputation) and replace the barrel. Second choice would be to hand lap the barrel. All IMO, of course.

[Singletree]

45 2.1 and Bass,
I hadn't given much thought to going softer. Good advice and I shall do that.
I need to get a measure on the throat and go from there. I believe I'll try the Unique, as was suggested also. If I get bullet expansion it will be good.

Grumble,
I'm inclined as you are that the gun just didn't make it to the service manager. I used red magic marker all over the package to direct attention to him but guess it didn't work.
The bore is just a smidge over .381 as is. Using the Saeco bullet at .382 the fired cases don't require any sizing to hold the bullet. Even thou Marlin says the chamber is maxed out, I believe I've went up in diameter as much as I can with the bullet. However I've some very fine polishing compound that I can wipe the bore with a few times to remove any burrs that are present. That has made a difference in T/C barrels that wouldn't shoot well.
Thanks again to all, have a fine evening.
Singletree.

[Pb head]

I've got three Marlins at the moment that I use in NRA lever action sillywet. An older microgroove 44 mag that shoots OK out to 200 meters, a 357 newer one with regular rifling that shoots real well and a 1897 24in oct bbl new that doesn't shoot any brand of ammo no matter what grade worth a damn. I have a hard time hitting the 100 meter ram with any regularety with it and I don't think it's all me. Sure is a pretty gun and since they don't make in 24 inch no more I hesitate to send it back.

Pb head

[Bass Ackward]

But, if a rough bore will shoot well, then a lapped bore should shoot even better.

First choice would be for Marlin to live up to their promise (and reputation) and replace the barrel. Second choice would be to hand lap the barrel. All IMO, of course.

Grumble,

I agree with the first choice.

The second choice can be true or false depending on the rifling height you have to start with and how much metal you have to remove to get to good dimensions. Irregardless of who made the barrel, if you can "see" waves with the naked eye as he claims, then lapping will remove critical rifling height.

So the easiest thing for ST to do is try and exaust his options under his current situation. Then he is free to keep pestering Marlin during the course of his progress. I would lapp as a last resort in this case.

[Sky C.]

Guys-
The problem with the Marlin is that the chambers are cut tight vs. bore size for the .38-55. Going larger in boolit size is limited by what you can get to chamber. I had this problem & asked Marlin to open the chamber to max SAAMI specs. They did but that still leaves the chamber too small to accommodate a boolit tht's .001" over groove dia. Many of the guys shooting this caliber go with softer alloys and have good luck. My rifle is shooting pretty well with 16 BHN alloy/ GC design as large as the chamber will allow. You may want to try about 16 grs. of 2400 which has worked well for me.

For more good info I recommend you check posts over on www.leverguns.com

Best regards-

Sky C.

[beagle]

Sky...Good post. There's only so far you can go on dimensions with the Marlins due to the chambering. I had one and don't have it any more. A shooting friend has one and it's given him fits. I fianlly gave him 500 .381" "beagled" bullets and I haven't heard him complaining anymore.

Too bad Marlin didn't use a standard diameter .375 barrel and chamber with a .375 Winchester reamer that was a tad long. Then, everything including all of the old moulds would be peachy.

I guess they figured at the time there were no SAAMI specs for the .38/55 due to its age and they'd "do their own thing" as far as dimensions. Little did they know that they turned a beautiful thing like a nice lever action .38-55 into a lightwieight boat anchor and in the process, further ruined their questionable reputation.

It's amazing to me that manufacturers like Marlin don't hire someone to haunt these sites and see what we're talking about, what our complaints are and what we desire in rifles.

If they did, maybe they'd avoid some of the "white elephants" that they have turned out in the past.

Don't get me wrong, I like Marlins but I've played games with them like Singletree has before and it finally ended up in Marlin replacing a .357 Magnum carbine with over 10,000 rounds on it./beagle

[45 2.1]

Some of the 38-55 CBs had tighter chambers than others. What can help is blowing out 30-30 brass, it has thinner neck walls after blowing out so you can use larger bullets.

[grumble]

Interesting comments all around. I didn't realize that Marlin was "winging it" when they cut the chambers for the 38-55. It's starting to sound like renting a standard finish reamer might be the best solution?

I've hand lapped several barrels. Depending on the condition before I did the lapping, it helped some, or it helped a lot. Two in particular, an old Turk Mauser and a Ruger Mini 14, the difference was almost miraculous. Obviously, the lapping is just to clean up and smooth out the barrel, not to the extent of cutting the rifling down to nothing.

For the least effort and most immediate results, it sounds like 45 2.1 and BA have the best ideas -- bigger boolits and thinner case necks. The real fix, though, without having to make custom rounds for just one rifle, would be a reamer and lapping. Or getting Marlin to live up to their reputation and replace that barrel with something decent.

[JohnH]

The NEF 38-55 Target Model barrels have this same problem, funky chambers and funky bore/groove diameters. I'm surprised that anyone whould even talk to about the rifle, NEF says that .381 is within spec and won't even discuss the problem. It does sound very like a finishing reamer would fix the problem, but it goes somewhat deeper. The chamebr spec for 375 Win calls for a length of 2.080, the 38-55 should be 2.120. It gets worse, the tapers of these casesa are slightly different, the 38-55 ending in .393 and the 375 ends at .400 Do a chamber cast and you end with a chamber the length of a 375 with 38-55 diameters. Seems that the common spec for dies follow the 375, so one is stuck shoving a 375 diamter case and taper into a 38-55 chamber. Winchester sized the 375 so that this couldn't be done. Duh. Marlin/NEF is winging it and there is no way to tell them it is wrong and prove it. A 375 groove with a .366 bore would have been wonderful. NEF will tell you their spec is .379/.376 Whose butt did they pull that out of?????

I'm taking my finished rounds, turning the sizing die into the press 1.5 turns and running the case back in so it will fit the chamber. My barrel is .379 and shoots the Lee 250 and the Lyman 379449 really well. I consider myself lucky in this respect, my gun will shoot.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have picked up an XTR version of one of these (and have found a collector, who has a brand new one, still with labels attached and original carton, etc) and have an RCBS mould in 250gn I think (my casting gear is at home, a couple of hundred miles away).

Has anybody had experience with these. No one seems to have jacketed boolits (not that I'm much interested in them anyway) so I'll have to cast.

Like I needed convincing anyway! Ain't nothing as satisfying as sending a good home made boolit downrange or grassing game with one. It doesn't get any better.
mick.

[bdoyle]

mick,
I have a 94 bb top eject 375. The throat is . 380 and the bore is .377. I am using a NEI .380-250-BB with an added gas check. The bullet drops 292gr and I size to .380. This is a short nose bullet so when seated in the case to 2.550, I have to crimp(38-55 lee factory crimp, 38-55 brass 2.080) below the crimp groove. This gets the bullet to the throat. The Win94 is chambered to fit the old 2.120 cases. I am using 20gr SR4759 but more experimenting is warrented. I was able to hit a six in plate @ 100 yard using a Williams FP more often than not.
Brian

[StarMetal]

One of my good friends in Tulsa, Ok bought a 375 Winchester 94 when the company was still owned by Winchester, not U.S. Repeating Arms. I remeber he bought the 200 some gr RCBS mould, I want to say 250 gr, can't remember. I don't recall we ever sat down and shot it for groups on paper, but I can say my friend Mike did something with it that impressed the heck out of me. We use to shoot informal silhouettes at the John Zink Ranch. Well one day we set the 50 meter chickens up at the 200 meter range (about 214 yards). Standing up, using the issue buckhorn sights, Mike levered down seven targets in a row with that cast load about as fast as he could lever it and aim. I didn't try it and frankly don't think I could have done it. I thought that the rifle, the load, and Mike shot very well indeed. He slugged the bore and I can't recall what it was other then it was very normal and not fat at all. I also know it was the same as his 375 H&H magnum, which by the way, he used that RCBS 250 gr cast bullet in with very good results. Maybe the earlier 375 were made to better tolerances.

Joe