I think I'll tin my copper with the solder I plan on adding to the alloy and come up with a (somewhat) precise mix. Testing the toughness in a quantitative way is the poser.
I think I'll tin my copper with the solder I plan on adding to the alloy and come up with a (somewhat) precise mix. Testing the toughness in a quantitative way is the poser.
Actually copper-zinc make bronze and brass is made from copper and tin.One can add zinc in the same way or much more readily available, add brass to get both copper and zinc. Zinc hardens the lead and also makes it more brittle so not good for a hunting boolit. My idea of thos lead-tin-copper is for a strong and ductile hunting boolit.
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Melting Stuff is FUN!Sent from my PC with a keyboard and camera on it with internet too.
Shooting stuff is even funner
L W Knight
You got the definitions backwards, LW. ... felix
felix
'Tother way around. Generally, Cu+Sn= bronze, and Cu+Zn= brass.
Better test those ideas thoroughly before folks start mixing up a witches' brew.
I'm with ya somewhat on the zinc, but the brass may not work as well. Brass has different chemical properties than Cu or Zn, and that includes solubility. Tinning and dissolving a 30-06 case in a pot of lead may not be a snap. The addition of both zinc and copper to the melt may (is likely to) also have totally unanticipated effects, and not just bring the 'best' of copper and the 'best' of zinc into the alloy. Test it and see how it goes.
Shhhhhhhhhhhhh! 303Guy is going to figure out that beat-up thrift store silverware is actually silverplated brass, and he'll have us trying to make these recipes:
10lbs lead
3ozs tin
two silverplated soup spoons and a seafood fork
Makes 11 lbs Lyman #2 alloy
9lbs stick-on ww's
1lb linotype
One silverplated butterknife and a gravy ladle
Makes 11lbs 'hardball' alloy
Hee hee!
Actually, I wouldn't want zinc in my mix anyway - I'm not after hardening.
OK, so brass won't disolve in the same way as copper or zinc on their own. Would bronze? (Too much copper but I'm just interested).
The real question is whether there is any benefit from adding copper to the alloy.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
Lots of different kinds of bronze, but if it was a straight copper/tin bronze, then I suspect that it likely would dissolve with your tinning method. One really needs to know what's in the bronze/brass/etc alloy, as it may contain silicon, aluminum, phosphorous, arsenic, or who-knows-what.
Here, here! That's no small question. You may have to invest in a lead hardness tester to better track your findings. I tried the lead/copper alloy routine back in the late 1980's, and found nothing that tin/antimony/arsenic cannot do better and easier, but perhaps you can tease out some useful applications. I hear claims, which is good, but I have seen no comparative tests.The real question is whether there is any benefit from adding copper to the alloy.
You might try tinning the copper wire from some old bore-brushes and dissolve it into a lead melt. The wire is phosphor bronze, and it'd be interesting to see if the tiny phosporus component produced a noticeable effect in the alloy. I believe it is soluble, and it may even increase the solubility of copper in lead, but have never seen anything written about this.
I have now done some estimations of how much copper went into my alloy. It looks like 0.07%. Some 7 grams into 37000 grams of lead. The amount of tin added was around 16 grams - 0.4%.
I'm busy making up a new lot. This time, I have melted down 5kg of lead pipe and have prepped 6.5 grams of copper for dissolving - for which I now waiting. I've adde to the melt without the tin because I am suspicious of the pureness of that lead. I cast a few sample boolits with it as melted and they come out a little harder than expected. I don't have a known pure lead sample to compare with.
This is how I do my comparisons. The method seems to be quite consistant.
I'll report back later with more findings.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
OK this is crazy!
I'm talking lead drain pipe. Just what's supposed to be in it? It was pretty soft as a pipe. Now, three hours after casting, it has become harder! The remainder of the pot has 7 grams of copper dissolved in it. Castings from that started out with the same hardness as without copper. An hour later they are even harder than without the copper. Water quenched castings were as hard as the copper free are now. After an hour they are harder but still softer than the air cooled copper castings after an hour! What gives? This is getting more and more confusing! By the way, the castings are real nice and shiny.
Oh, the addition of copper did not produce the colours the last lot gained after adding copper. I'll have to do a test firing into sand in the morning. (If I don't get called to go work).
Last edited by 303Guy; 06-21-2010 at 05:52 PM.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
The ingots that I made from lead pipe were harder than pure lead but still pretty soft.
There might be a little arsenic and antimony in it.
Melting Stuff is FUN!Sent from my PC with a keyboard and camera on it with internet too.
Shooting stuff is even funner
L W Knight
Usually have joints in pipe containing tin solder.
Any pipes or roofing metal I've ever had was much harder than pure lead.
I've some cable sheathing that is pure.
So it would seem then that the lead pipe I am handling is work softened. I am keeping the soldered joints separate - that's my source of tin. So, would adding tin actually soften it then? And hopefully make it tougher?
Well then, maybe I have found a sustainable source of boolit lead. Wheel weights are like hens teeth (fishermen, you know ). All the alloy has to do is expand properly and hold together.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
303guy,
You sure that pipe lead work softens?
Well, the lead was as soft as when I handled it and now that I've melted it down and cast a few sample boolits it's as hard as (by my standards and it hardened quite rapidly after casting whether it was water quenched or not. So no, I am not sure of anything!
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
This is normal and expectable. Lead pipe often has a percent or two of antimony. This is also true with lead sheet. Lead pipe and lead sheet could be almost anything, and it's very possible that it's recycled battery lead.
The extrusion process invariably softens the lead. The hardness of the lead pipe before melting and casting into ingots is not representative of the alloy constituents. The commonly-repeated belief that lead pipe is pure lead is not always true.
You'll need to know how much Sb is in your alloy to be able to discern any hardening from copper, especially since your Sb component may be 50 times greater than your copper component. Trying to tease some solid understanding of what effect about 0.05% copper has without starting with pure lead is going to be very, very difficult.
Not trying to discourage. Good luck.
What would happen if you threw copper plated shot in? Is there enough copper to be of use? If it melted you would at least be able to be consistent.
I went out to Rotometal and found this: http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/...rd_babbitt.htm
It's likely silly expensive but at 36% Tin with 51% Lead, 1% Copper and 12% Antimony. Melt Temp Around 360 deg F. You could work out a formula for adding pure lead to make this work.
Abitnutx, the math is easy.
What result would you like to have. I'll make you the recipe.
Melting Stuff is FUN!Sent from my PC with a keyboard and camera on it with internet too.
Shooting stuff is even funner
L W Knight
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |