I'm about to give up casting, Part 2

[patsher]

I've been following this thread carefully, because I'm trying to solve leading problems in my 9mm Sig P226.

To cut to the chase, I following your advice and tried pulling a measured bullet after loading, and found that my case was, indeed, swaging down the bullet some. Then I re-loaded the same bullet, and found that my Lee FCD was swaging it even further. Overall, I lost nearly .003 in diameter, caused by my equipment. No wonder I was having leading!

So. I took a previously-fired case and bypassed the first (decapping/sizing) die, flared it on the second (flaring/powder) die, re-adjusted the third (bullet seating) die so that it would not flare, and loaded a bullet.

The Problem: how do I crimp it (because the bullet is loose) without swaging it?

[qajaq59]

The Problem: how do I crimp it (because the bullet is loose) without swaging it?

Your bullet should be tight without any crimping. If it isn't then I'd go back to running it thru the sizing die and look for another answer to the problem. Perhaps a bigger mandrel for the die?

[fredj338]

I've been following this thread carefully, because I'm trying to solve leading problems in my 9mm Sig P226.

To cut to the chase, I following your advice and tried pulling a measured bullet after loading, and found that my case was, indeed, swaging down the bullet some. Then I re-loaded the same bullet, and found that my Lee FCD was swaging it even further. Overall, I lost nearly .003 in diameter, caused by my equipment. No wonder I was having leading!

So. I took a previously-fired case and bypassed the first (decapping/sizing) die, flared it on the second (flaring/powder) die, re-adjusted the third (bullet seating) die so that it would not flare, and loaded a bullet.

The Problem: how do I crimp it (because the bullet is loose) without swaging it?

LFCD can be death to lead or plated bullet accuracy, especially if th ebullets are soft. A mild std taper crimp is all that is needed. SOme bbls just lead, Sigs have a aprticular bad rep for it. I believe they are cut rifled. Fire lapping may help.

[jaguarxk120]

Get a new set of dies from another mfgr. Redding, Hornady, RCBS, Lyman!

[EMC45]

Cut the carbide ring out of your LEE FCD die. I did 3 this way and haven't looked back! Still maintain the crimp function, but lose the swaging down of the carbide ring.

[JesseCJC]

Mayb a stupid question here but have you tried removing the fcd from the equation all together? If so, was the result any different?

[dragonrider]

The carbide rings in Lee FCD's are pressed in and held with loctite. Remove the inards of the die and you can punch it out from the top. Some heat on it will help break the loctite bond.

[RobS]

I've cut the carbide section off the die as well although I tried like heck to knock that sucker out with a punch with marginal luck on the first die. If you choose to cut it off just make sure you don't cut too far up on the die or you will loose the step in the inside of the it that keeps the crimp sleeve from staying in the die. I've done two different die sets by cutting them out and no problems. Also if you want to try for a few rounds with a normal crimp what to do it without modifying your dies all you need to do is take the body of the expander/powder through die (insides removed) and put in the crimp sleeve and screw the adjusting knob into the top of the expander/powder through dies body. Presto a crimp die without the carbide ring. You can get yourself an expander die body if you want directly from lee for $13. I vote to either knock the carbide ring out of the die you have or cut it out whatever works best for you.

However, you will need to size down the case as neck tension is needed to help keep the bullet in place and to give enough resistence for the powder to burn prior to heading into the barrel. The ways to combat the case swage down on the bullet is to size the bullet bigger or get an expander plug to re-open the brass case to a diameter that wont squeeze the cast bullet.

[patsher]

Thanks, everyone. I'll try to answer your questions:

Qajaq59: I'll check to see whether I can get a bigger mandrel. That's equivalent to what RobS suggested about an expander plug.

jaguarxk120: It may come to that, a new set of dies, lol!

emc45, dragonrider, and RobS: I'm going to try RobS's suggestion about putting the crimp sleeve into the expander/powder die body, and try crimping a few rounds that way. Then I'll decide whether to get an expander die body, and/or cut the carbide ring out of the fcd.

Thanks for all the detail and how-to's, that gives me the confidence to try!

[patsher]

JesseCJC: I hadn't thought of that -- mainly because I figured I still needed a crimp of some kind. When I sized the case in the first die, it swaged the bullet down. And if I didn't size it, the bullet was loose (I could push it clean down to the top of the powder with just finger pressure.

Howsomever... if I can get a way to give them a simple taper die without swaging, OUT IT GOES.

[stang68]

I've posted this on other threads on this forum but what I did with my 357 Lee dies was set the seating die in the 3rd hole to just seat the boolit. Since I need oversized boolits and don't want them downsized for my Marlin Model 1894 and I found that the FCD was downsizing my boolits to .358, I ordered another seating die from Lee, but just the barrel without the seating plug and I put that in the 4th hole of my turret press in place of the FCD and adjust it to crimp the boolit, works like a charm and my boolits are not downsized.

[462]

Patsher,
Welcome to the forum.

Everybody has different experiences with their dies, and they have their favorite brands. I had serious problems with everyone of my Lee handgun seating dies down sizing boolits. I replaced all of them with Lyman -- because of their "M" die -- and have no more problems.

[RobS]

The M die...............I use them for all my PB bullets now. I hate making up a bullet that just gets swaged down by the case........ruins everything you are trying to accomplish. The bad thing for me is mine had to be custom for things to work. They use to make an expander plug for .454 bullets and discontinued it and instead have one for .451-.452 bullets which does me no bit of good. I took their 45 cal rifle plug, annealed it so it was softer, turned it down using my drill press to the diameter I wanted and then re-heat treated it. I also had our forum member here Buckshot make me one before turning one down on my own.

I've only had lee four die sets in 45 acp and 454 casull so I can't comment on a seating die swaging down a bullet, but could see it's possibility with the 3 die sets where the bullet is seated and crimped in the same stage. One thing for sure with the 4 die set, the Lee factory crimp die can play games on a persons bullet diameter if it is large enough to make the brass case hit on the carbide die which is a tell, tell sign that something is going to be squeezed down if the loaded round is going to go through the die.

[MtGun44]

Once again, the Lee pistol FCD is causing problems. These are an abomination, IMO.

I use and like Lee dies in general, and they are very innovative as a company. The
rifle FCD is a totally different concept, and is great.

Please, newbies, do not buy Lee pistol FCDs or if you have them, put them away!

Bill

[odoh]

The FCD function differently for the bottleneck cartridges (mostly rifle calibers) and streight wall cartridges (most pistol calibers) yet Lee doesn't address/differentiate that. They'll write instructions to cover both types w/the bottleneck FCD illustrated. Found it very confusing. The technology for the bottleneck works well ~ have had very little sucess w/the other. I keep them around for those rare instances when I foul up and cause distortion of the round preventing chambering (like too heavy of a roll crimp) ~ then I'll haul out the FCD to squish things back in shape and press on ~ I don't use the pistol FCD for production. From the comments here, I'm gonna hafta educate myself on Lymans M die.

[patsher]

stang68, are you saying that the barrel only of the seating die will not swage down the bullet?

[patsher]

However, you will need to size down the case as neck tension is needed to help keep the bullet in place and to give enough resistence for the powder to burn prior to heading into the barrel. 

If I can get a suitable crimp die, will I still need to size down the case, or will the crimp be sufficient neck tension?

The ways to combat the case swage down on the bullet is to size the bullet bigger or get an expander plug to re-open the brass case to a diameter that wont squeeze the cast bullet. 

Which die does the Lyman "M" die replace?

[sagacious]

Patsher,
The 9mm case must be resized. Can't skip that part.

The problem to attack is your expanding/belling die. The solution to your problem is a belling die that expands the case to not more than .001" below the desired diam of your cast bullets. Many expanding/belling dies are designed to provide strong neck tension with jacketed bullets and do not expand the casemouth very much, and as you found, this dimensional mismatch causes the softer lead bullets to be sized down.

This problem is very common. I suspect that one of the reasons that some people find that very hard bullets work best in their 9mm, is because it prevents undesired resizing of the cast bullet. Others find that a very hard bullet is not needed for the 9mm, and those people almost surely have the correct size belling/expanding die-- whether by luck or design.

Once you have that licked, just apply a light taper crimp with your regular crimp die, and you're set to go. Good luck.

[Lee W]

I have had good luck with the 9mm. I purchased a Glock 34 last year and my goal was to have a no leading load for it.
I used water dropped WWs with Rooster Zambini and a spritz of lanolin/Rooster jacket to help size the boolits. (.357 dia.)
The powder choice was a little more difficult. The new powder Autocomp from Winchester caught my eye so I used that.
I shot a winter league and a few other matches over that time (5-600 rounds) and I cleaned the barrel with the factory plastic brush. NO leading to speak of. The chamber is spotless with a few spots in the barrel that seem to be in a differnet place every time I clean it.

All that said, I use RCBS carbide die, a Dillon 1050 pistol expander and an RCBS taper crimp. I like the most neck tension as I can get. I do not know if the boolit gets sized after seating.

(Don't give up.)

[RobS]

I do not know if the boolit gets sized after seating.

(Don't give up.)

If you water quench the bullets and wait a few hours minum before sizing or sizing/lubing then reload, it is very unlikely that they are sizing down during the seating as the bullets are hard enough by then to withstand the stress the brass puts on it.