thanks for all the replies they all heave helped. As i stated earlier I'm only interested in a plinker around here I have seen the 22/45 brand new for 309.99 so I put that as the max amount that I wanted to pay. There doesn't seem to be too many of these types of guns on the used market which tells me most are happy with what they bought and I find that encouraging. I have not made a choice and of course half the fun is the hunt