Oh good lord, troopers never fired their carbines while mounted. IF they fired from the mounted position , that's what the colt was for.
When they fired their carbines it was from skirmish lines and that's why they rode 3 abreast. The middle man held/secured the horses while the outside troopers fired.
The army also rightly so determined that the basic use of the carbine did not need an affective range past 600 yds, so there was no need to issue a load to the mounted troops that went beyond that. And up until the late 1880's even the infantry was issued 405 gr bullets but that load was the 70 gr load and was rated to 800 yds. ( Matter of fact I've seen that load shoot quite well at 1/2 mile) The 500 gr load came to the infantry just slightly before the issuance of the Krags.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Tom
Lots of info on different loads but I'll just mention the carbine load i use in my H&R LBH carbine. It duplicates the original 45-55 load's ballistics and is regulated to the M1878 type sight's range marking. I can also shoot it all day long without cleaning or the fouling hurting accuracy. One time over 100 rounds was fired through my carbine without cleaing. Accuracy (3 moa with original M1878 sights) was the same with the final rounds as with the first. It cleaned up without problems and there was no hard fouling in the bore and no leading. I use a duplex load as developed following Spence Wolf's techniques from his book.
I use two bullets; the Lyman 457124 and Lee's 458-405-HB. Both are generally cast of 30-1 or 20-1 lead - tin alloy. The Lee bullet is a faithful repro of the M1873 bullet. I make the lube with 5 parts beeswax to 4 parts olive oil. I size the bullets .4615 simply because that's the sizer I use for my original TD. The groove depth on the H&R is .458 so it works fine. I have also shot both bullets "as cast" with equal results.
I use R-P or W-W cases. Cases are partial or neck sized. I also use pretty much any standard LR primer i have on hand. My testing with duplex loads is that the brand of primer makes little difference.
I put 5 gr of 4759 over the primer and then 49 gr of Goex Cartridge powder on top. No compression die is needed. I just close the case mouth on the Lee 458-405-HB's front driving band and lightly crimp over the front of the Lyman's 457124 front driving band. This gives mild compression to the powder charge. Velocity is right at 1150 fps out of my LBH carbine.
This makes for very good shooting loads.
Larry Gibson
"NEVER fired thier carbines when mounted"...
Maybe the manual for Calvary opperations says dismount.... But there are personal testimonies of troopers firing carbines from horseback. Regulations back then are as they were when I was riding M60A1 tanks.. Guidelines. Troopers will do what needs done.
BUT I totally agree... The Lord is Good !
Mike in Peru
"Behold The Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world". John 1:29
Male Guanaco out in dry lakebed at 10,800 feet south of Arequipa.
To much history from Hollweird me thinks....
Long range rules, the rest drool.
According to Spence Wolf, the first Govt. carbine loads had a wad, but the arsenal soon found it to not be necessary, and dispensed with it. Simple is good.
Terry
45 2.1
Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.
Never sleep, never die
Knowledge is easy to get, but worthless if you never use it. However the info is free, so the only person you have to blame is yourself if you chose not to use the information.
Larry, thanks, I have some 4759 powder coming I'll try that and I have the Lee mold plus 30-1 lead ready to go.
U S Navy Retired. NRA Lifetime Member. NMLA. SASS Member Time magazine Person of the year 2006
Don,
"Never" is an awful big word. I think Mike is correct.
Larry,
Very interesting post, thanks for the data.
Cat
Cogito, ergo armatum sum.
(I think, therefore I'm armed.)
Well its not hard to figure out. Grab youself a McClellan saddle load it and yourself with all the gear strap that trapdoor on and let us know how you fared.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
I use the wad/cookie to separate the BP from the cream of wheat. My bullets are lubed and don't need anymore lube.
If you are shooting an original carbine like I am, I wouldn't use any duplex load in my gun!!! These loads scare me in original, soft metal guns!!! Plus the originals are high value pieces!!!
Last edited by Rafsob; 06-12-2013 at 05:45 PM.
Just Another Voice in the Crowd!
Properly developed duplex loads are quite safe, no need to be "scared". I have pressure tested BP, BP substitute and duplex loads (45-55 & 45-70 using 4759 and GOEX 3F) using 405 gr (Lee 459-405-HB) & 500 gr (Rapine 460500) cast bullets. Proper duplex loads (as I listed in the previous thread) actually develop less peak psi and a slower time pressure curve than the equivelent load of BP does (GOEX 3F & Cartridge). Thus they are actually safer to use in your original TD just as in mine (M1884).
BTW; the carbine duplex load I mention in my above post runs at 20,100 psi(M43) which is quite a bit less than the SAAMI MAP of 28,000 psi for original TDs like yours.
No reason to have any "scare" with properly developed duplex loads as they can easily be the same and as safe as any other load, even a BP load.
Larry Gibson
Last edited by Larry Gibson; 06-16-2013 at 03:32 PM.
Just prior to the acceptance of the Krag, Springfield was experimenting with smokeless loads for the trapdoor. They also used trapdoor actions to test the barrel steels being considered for the Krag. Properly loaded, smokeless is not a problem.
Knowledge I take to my grave is wasted.
I prefer to use cartridges born before I was.
Success doesn't make me happy, being happy is what allows me to be successful.
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |