PP Friendly chamber?

[Lead pot]

Someone may have a load that shoots like JESUS CHRIST was at the trigger from 200 to 300 yards/meters...what have you.....but until it's tested at LONG RANGE.....it may not hit 'diddly-squat' at 800 to 1000!! But if 300 is all you're gonna shoot......doesn't make much difference!!

Well I don't know how a Jesus Christ load shoots but I took a .44 load that shot very good out to 200 yards to Alliance and shot it for two days before the match and found that load started to have problems on the 500 yard target no mater what I used for fouling control, blow tube, one wet one dry, two wet and dry one damp with out a dry well that pulled the neck off the case.
Took several PP loads to Orville's range and found that long nosed bullet just would not hold past 400 yards.
I have two .44-90 BN chambered rifles one with the tapered lead and one with the 45 degree, one shot very good and the other shot good using the lubed bullet and PP bullet, like I have said many times--both chambers will work good, but now both of my .44's have the tapered lead.
I now have a reamer in the works with a original Remington chamber design with a long tapered lead for a .44-100 Remington chamber.
By the way Don, I could not have that reamer ground with out some sort of drawing

[Don McDowell]

Kurt that's what I said the drawings are all fine and dandy and necessary before you get the reamer and stick it into the barrel.
But once that barrel has already been done, the rifle is boxed up sent out and picked up from the dealer, what the drawing shows means little. What the cerrosafe says tells you exactly what you've got to work with.

From what I've been able to determine if a person is going to shoot patched to groove diameter, the diameter of the bullet itself can't exceed bore diameter. Ie if you want a half a chance of making bullets patched to groove in a 458 barrel, the slug itself needs be no larger than .450 and probably tapered so the base is the only thing measuring .450.

I do think that 5* lead you use is a very good idea, as I've seen what it can do with both naked and patched bullets. But at the same time I also see what happens with my rifle's and their standard chambers and others.
Got's to work with what the rifle fairy brung ya.

[montana_charlie]

Thanks for those drawings, Tom. Excellent work...

Tom made the chamber drawings from a set of numbers supplied by the Pedersoli factory. They are the specs the factory uses to cut their reamers.
We can assume Tom's drawings depict a 'normal' Pedersoli chamber since the overall shape closely approximates the chamber cast posted earlier by Rick...except for one thing.
I don't see a long freebore in Rick's chamber cast.
Rick, was that taken from your rolling block...or your Sharps?

If a 'gentle' chamber step is the 'good idea' for PP that Kurt and Orville Loomis say it is, the factory chamber from Pedersoli comes very close to duplicating what they have cut in their guns...while still being a proper chamber for GG bullets.
The difference between this and theirs is the presence of the (longish) freebore.

I don't know what Orville has, but Kurt's drawing shows he has no freebore. The 5 degree 'transition' connects directly to the 2.5 degree 'leade'.

With the freebore being present, it allows the bullet to seat out further...allowing a bigger powder charge.


Getting off of the Paper Patch theme for a moment...notice how well the PGT bullet fits the Pedersoli 'throat'.

Tom had the Pedersoli specs for the chamber. He got the bullet specs from Dr. Gunn's drawing on the BPCR.net website.
When he 'married' the two sets of numbers...they matched beautifully.

Two driving bands exactly bridge the freebore (good for alignment), the nose nestles perfectly in the leade cone angle (good for alignment), and there is a grease groove right over the 'chamber step'...which is good for preventing leading at that spot if the brass case is a little shorter than the chamber.

If 'bullet fit' is as vital as everybody says, any Pedersoli owner who doesn't try the PGT is probably overlooking the best GG choice for his rifle.

Back to Paper Patch...the bullet shown is my patched-to-groove Money bullet package.
You can decide for yourself if it looks like a good fit for that shooting style, or if patched-to-bore seems more reasonable to you.
I started with a .450" bullet, migrated to .452"...and have now settled on .454" as being the best fit in my rifle with the paper I am using.

I have photos which prove that patching to groove can be made to produce a pristine bullet leaving the muzzle. From that point on, it all depends on load development to find the accuracy which that bullet design and rifle are capable of.

A tip for any who are just beginning to consider paper patching...
Establish your paper supply first. Then decide what the diameter of your bullet needs to be to make that paper work in your barrel dimensions.

Back when I first received the specs for Pedersoli chambers, I was about to have a 45/70 converted to 45/90. I knew at the time of the PGT bullet, and I wanted to know whose reamer most closely resembled the Pedersoli shape. None of them did, and I wasn't up (back then) for having a custom reamer made.
So, (sadly) I settled for a rather 'standard' throat shape.

But, when looking at those numbers, I was only interested in the 'throat'. I didn't know what a chamber step was...and wouldn't have cared if a step could be 'friendly' to paper patched bullets. But, a recent reading of that old email caused the 'step angle' to catch my eye...due to the discussions during the last year, or so.

I started this thread to explore the possibility that a factory Pedersoli chamber might already have a PP friendly shape...as defined by the experiments of Kurt and Orville when duplicating the 'friendly elements' of antique chambers.

I would say that it turns out to be true...

CM

[45 2.1]

Charlie-
Have you, or anyone else for that matter, considered patching a base band boolit that matched the case, throat taper and lands of your barrel taking into account the paper thickness along with the required fouling thickness? It would be easy to do with a swaging die. You would get the entire bearing surface properly aligned so no part would bump anymore than necessary.

[Don McDowell]

Rcbs's paper patch bullet is much that way. Several of the custom makers offer a bullet with such a taper.

[montana_charlie]

Charlie-
Have you, or anyone else for that matter, considered patching a base band boolit that matched the case, throat taper and lands of your barrel taking into account the paper thickness along with the required fouling thickness?

Well, I was aware of the existence of tapered bullets when I first started to consider PP-ing.

Reading about what other (successful) shooters were doing, and considering the bullet designs available, I made a choice for 'parallel sides'.
I didn't want to take on the problem of shaping a patch which rolls smoothly onto a 'cone'...rather than a 'cylinder'.

I took the easy way...and messed with it until it worked.
CM

[Red River Rick]

Tom:

Thanks for taking the time and making up the drawings, it's very much appreciatted.

No doubt, everything matches up perfecty...........................on paper. But the reality is, what if your chamber isn't like the one depicted?

I happened to have a few of PGT bullets MC sent me last year, I tried them in my Pedersoli Competition (45-90) and they worked OK. However; in my Pedersoli RB (45-70), they don't fit.

Unlike the drawings Tom posted, and by looking at the pic of the chamber cast I posted, my chamber has no "Feebore". And what little "Leade" there is, is only about 0.120". So, not all Pedersoli chambers are alike. Like Don mentioned, making a chamber cast is about the only correct way to gauge.

The pic below shows the PGT bullet seated into one of my 45-70 cases. In order for me to get the darn thing chambered, I have to seat that bullet below the first driving band. Which equates to approx 0.750" in depth. And even then, I had to push the round into the chamber.

That's double the amount I have to seat the Dixie/Lyman Bore-Rider Greaser.

????????????

RRR

[Red River Rick]

Rcbs's paper patch bullet is much that way. Several of the custom makers offer a bullet with such a taper.

Dual-Diameter bullets have been around for a long time. If I recall correctly, mind you I could be wrong as well, the Peabody used a dual-diameter bullet.

I have a set of swaging die to make 0.403" - 0.411" dual diameter "J" bullets.

RRR

[Lead pot]

My first reproduction Sharps was a pedersoli Quigley from back when they first sold in Cabela's. It had a chamber like Tom has drawn up except it had the 45 degree chamber end and a long cylinder "free bore" than the lead( I call everything from the case mouth forward to the top of the land the lead and the only way to get that rifle to shoot right was using a PP bullet patched to groove diameter or use a GG bullet that has no "bore riding step" or knurled bullets .460 diameter. Bullets like these swaged bullets below.
I looked at a new Pedersoli through a bore scope and it looked like the photo Charlie posted so I think they mad a change down the line.

[montana_charlie]

I happened to have a few of PGT bullets MC sent me last year, I tried them in my Pedersoli Competition (45-90) and they worked OK. However; in my Pedersoli RB (45-70), they don't fit.

I bet if your rolling block had been made after 2000, the PGT would fit.

Back when I was looking for a Sharps to buy, I had decided to get a Pedersoli. So, I had 'made contact' with Dick Trenk and Lee Shaver to be able to learn as many tidbits as they might be able to pass on.

When it became obvious that I would probably buy a used rifle, I asked one of them (don't remember which) if there had been any 'evolution' in the Sharps barrels...which might make it advisable to be careful of when a rifle had been manufactured.

The answer was yes...there had been some changes from the original barrels. I was advised (in 2005) that any rifle made after 2000 would have the 'current' configuration.
It was during that same period that I got the specs from Dick Trenk which Tom used for the diagrams.

So, I believe the diagrams depict the barrel which was being made between 2000 and 2005...and I think they have stayed with that configuration because it works so well.

Just out of curiosity, I would like to see a chamber cast from a recently built (year-old) Pedersoli Sharps.

CM

[Red River Rick]

I bet if your rolling block had been made after 2000, the PGT would fit.

Charlie:

Your probably right. When I checked with Gloria at Pedersoli, the records indicate that my rifle was made in 85' and shipped to RUKO of Canada. I thought it was made a lot earlier.

Just out of curiosity, I would like to see a chamber cast from a recently built (year-old) Pedersoli Sharps.

My Pedersoli (S 796-459) chambered for 45-90 was bought new in 08". I'm not sure it was made in 08', but it's about as new as I can get my hands on.

I'll try to do a chamber cast of it, within the next few days, and we'll see what it's "Throat" is like.

RRR

[montana_charlie]

My Pedersoli (S 796-459) chambered for 45-90 was bought new in 98". I'm not sure it was made in 98', but it's about as new as I can get my hands on.

Did you confirm it's manufacture date with Gloria?

I didn't get interested in Sharps guns until (about) 2005. At that time, the S.795 and S.796 were not on the Pedersoli website, but they did show the (old) "Long Range Target" models with the half-round barrels.

My recollection has the the 'Competition' guns first showing up on the website...and shipping to dealers...around 2006 - 2007. I was paying attention because I sure wished I had one.

1998 sounds unlikely to me but I could believe 2008.
Gloria would know the real skinny...

CM

[Red River Rick]

Charlie:

My mistake, it should be 08' and not 98'.


RRR

[montana_charlie]

Since I don't have a Pedersoli chamber in my Pedersoli rifle, I wanted to see a 'picture' of how my loaded cartridge lays in the chamber I do have. So, I began with Tom's drawing, and started manipulating the elements to agree with what I use.

The case is now a 'stretched' 45/90 which fits a 2.410" chamber, cut in one of the standard SAMMI configurations.
The patched-to groove Money bullet is seated to a point .670" below the case mouth.
The length of the patch (including the base fold) is .870", and extends a bit forward of the ogive, because I use (too soft) 20-1 alloy.

With the 'Screen Calipers' software properly calibrated, I built this image to a point where everything is accurate to within a thousandth, or so.

If I were going to use this bullet in the Pedersoli factory chamber, I would reduce the seating depth to .534"...with no other change.



Thanks for the 'material' to work with, Tom.

CM

[45 2.1]

Charlie- Have you considered patching a base band boolit

Rcbs's paper patch bullet is much that way. Several of the custom makers offer a bullet with such a taper.

They are not tapered........

Well, I was aware of the existence of tapered bullets when I first started to consider PP-ing.
CM

They are not tapered........

Dual-Diameter bullets have been around for a long time. If I recall correctly, mind you I could be wrong as well, the Peabody used a dual-diameter bullet.
They are dual diameter, but the base has a groove size band about 0.08 to 0.012" long dependent on caliber. The idea is about 100 years old at least.

I have a set of swaging die to make 0.403" - 0.411" dual diameter "J" bullets. RRR

This would work fine, the swaging die that is.

[Don McDowell]

45 2.1 ? Do you mean just the RCBS bullet? As I know of several different moulds that throw a .450 base with a lot of taper that folks are using for patched to groove.

[45 2.1]

45 2.1 ? Do you mean just the RCBS bullet? As I know of several different moulds that throw a .450 base with a lot of taper that folks are using for patched to groove.

No, a base band bullet is a two diameter bullet. For a bullet, it would have a groove diameter base with the body the same size going forward perhaps 0.12" then a mild taper (somewhat close to whats in the rifles throat) to a bore diameter section till you get to the nose (all of this would be suitably smaller so a patch brings it up to the proper size to load for a boolit).