Milk Jug 300 Yard 6.5 Swede

[Larry Gibson]

starmetal

I am at a loss as to how you or Dutchman figure the M38 replacement barrel on the Mex 98 action is not a "normal barrel and chamber"(?). It has only been fitted to a different SR action. The chamber was fully chambered before I fitted it to the action, I measured it. It is simply fitted to the action with minimum headspace. The chamber and barrel/bore are 100% 6.5 Swede. It chambers and shoots factory 6.5 Swede ammo just fine and my 6.5 Swede loads just fine. It is a 6.5 Swede. I'm at a further loss as to how you or he Dutchman can determine otherwise when neither of you have seen the rifle.

A money bet? Heck I've already offered you $1 per round for your loads and I'll give you the cases back! Mail the case(s). I have 4 6.5 Swedes including the M96 with very long headspace. I've no doubt your cases will chamber in one of them. Two of them lready have strain gauges attached and I can easily attach a strain gauge to one of the other 2 if necessary. If I'm only testing for velocity/pressure data then the matter of a scope on the other 2 is not relavent. Besides I can still shoot iron quite well.

I won't be home until tomorrow and I'l post the chamber neck measurements of the M38 (scoped). I will also post the pressure curves from the last test if you are still interested but with all the criticism we'd have to wonder why?

Larry Gibson

PS; I like robertbank's suggestion if you want to do that?

[StarMetal]

starmetal

I am at a loss as to how you or Dutchman figure the M38 replacement barrel on the Mex 98 action is not a "normal barrel and chamber"(?). It has only been fitted to a different SR action. The chamber was fully chambered before I fitted it to the action, I measured it. It is simply fitted to the action with minimum headspace. The chamber and barrel/bore are 100% 6.5 Swede. It chambers and shoots factory 6.5 Swede ammo just fine and my 6.5 Swede loads just fine. It is a 6.5 Swede. I'm at a further loss as to how you or he Dutchman can determine otherwise when neither of you have seen the rifle.

A money bet? Heck I've already offered you $1 per round for your loads and I'll give you the cases back! Mail the case(s). I have 4 6.5 Swedes including the M96 with very long headspace. I've no doubt your cases will chamber in one of them. Two of them lready have strain gauges attached and I can easily attach a strain gauge to one of the other 2 if necessary. If I'm only testing for velocity/pressure data then the matter of a scope on the other 2 is not relavent. Besides I can still shoot iron quite well.

I won't be home until tomorrow and I'l post the chamber neck measurements of the M38 (scoped). I will also post the pressure curves from the last test if you are still interested but with all the criticism we'd have to wonder why?

Larry Gibson

PS; I like robertbank's suggestion if you want to do that?

Larry,

From what you've posted about the MexSwede it sounds like the chamber is very tight. Especially if all you can chamber for a bullet is a .267. Is that correct? Do you think my .323 loaded neck diameters will fit your MexSwede? I"m pretty sure they won't fit the chamber as they are snug in mine. I may consider sending empty cases ready to go, but not loaded ammo. I'm not going to deal with the UPS's BS on that. Robert Bank hope you are reading this as that is one reason I'm not doing it.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

starmetal

No I do not think the .323 loaded necks will fit in the Mex Swede. However I've 3 other Swedes. Also are you sure about .323? That would mean your case necks are .0275 thick if cylindrical. Is the .323 at the base of the neck, the middle or the case mouth?

I will pay the UPS shipping for 5 cartridges, I'll send you the shipping box already labled, or what ever it takes.

Larry Gibson

[robertbank]

I understand cost would be an issue. You could mail him some of your filler, five or six of your bullets and uprimed cases. Then the only variable would be his loading technique which I am sure you could live with.

Take Care

Bob
ps Larry has solved the cost issue it would seem.

[StarMetal]

starmetal

No I do not think the .323 loaded necks will fit in the Mex Swede. However I've 3 other Swedes. Also are you sure about .323? That would mean your case necks are .0275 thick if cylindrical. Is the .323 at the base of the neck, the middle or the case mouth?

I will pay the UPS shipping for 5 cartridges, I'll send you the shipping box already labled, or what ever it takes.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

It's the whole case neck as I neck trim them pretty precise and I'm absolutely positive.

Joe

[Pat I.]

I think you guys might be talking about two different things. I sounds like SM is talking about the neck length because he mentioned that he trims them and Larry is talking about the neck thickness which is gotten by turning them. I don't think even by forming with the thickest 06 brass that you could clean it up and have .0275 per side left. Plus what purpose would the Swedes have in making a chamber neck with a diameter probably .025 over the biggest loaded neck diameter. The thickest I found in my book of chamber prints is .297 and I don't think just because it's a military rifle they'd add another .025. If Larry knows the diameter of his chamber neck and SM mics a loaded round you'd be able to know if it would fit or not. Even if you did turn the necks perfectly concentric there's probably a .003 or so taper in the chamber neck so it wouldn't be absolutely tight. Might be wrong and they do make them that big. I'll have to check the chambers on my Swedes.

I think there's too much arguing about equipment and not enough conversation about results. It's been said that all rifles are different. Some have lose headspace some tight and some just right. It's also been said that more than a few guys have done the tricks and gotten the results both in excellent accuracy and fast speeds. I can't believe that all of these guys have the exact same set up in their chamber so what difference does it make if Larry's is on the tight side. From an accuracy standpoint being tight should enhance the results not take away from them. I also don't see what difference it would make if the barrel was on a Swede action or a small ring Mex. They're both small ring Mauser actions so it shouldn't make a difference. If I was able to fit the barrel to a Stolle action bench gun it would still be a Swede Mauser barrel with a Swede Mauser chamber.

I think the best thing to do at this point is to quit arguing the nonsence and let Larry get on with his testing. He stated a long time ago that he hadn't drawn any conclusions from his first tests and planned on continuing so why bash the hell out of him.

Edit: I just did a rudimentary check on my M38 and it looks like it's around .303 or .304 down by the base of the neck so it sounds like there might be a terminology problem going on.

[StarMetal]

Oh my, my bad....I said neck trimmed when I should have said neck turned. At any rate Larry knows what I'm talking or should I say Larry and I know what we're talking about.

I made the neck turning pilot for my Forster neck turner. I cut is a tight as possible fit in the inside of the neck. I assure you my case necks aren't tapered. Maybe if you take them out to .00000 on the decimal point they are.

So you tell me how I'm fitting a .323-.324 case neck into my Swede.

One further thing...you're always on Larry's side. I resent that...I was trying to help him and made the bad mistake of telling him what was wrong with his loads/test. He's just as much the blame in what has transpired here. I told him before he shot the test that he had the wrong buffer and that the powder charges were too high for the 4350...in said that indirectly by him knowing what my charge was for my sweet spot load. As for the MexSwede I never had anything to say about that. When Larry told me what it was and said he'd like to use that I accepted. That argument is between 45 2.1 and him not me. All I do have to say is that his chamber is kind of strange on his. I say that because myself and a few others are using .268 bullets and thick 06 necks and they fit our chambers. Larry already stated my cartridges will not fit his MexSwede chamber. I don't care what action the barrel is on as long as it's an original Swede.

I apologize to the rest of you, the hits just keep on coming.

Joe

[Pat I.]

I'm not taking sides at all and I can assure you I know what you're talking about and also that your chamber neck is tapered. If you're case necks are tapered or not I don't know but for certain your chamber neck is. Probably .003 or .004 from shoulder/neck junction to the transition point of chamber to throat. Are you sure you measured a 6.5 when you came up with .324? I could see that neck diameter for a 7MM but it sounds overly large for a 6.5. Again looking at my book of chamber prints from PPG the 7x57 has a chamber neck diameter that tapers from .325 down to .322 (both rounded off a couple of tenths). And like I said I just took a rudimentary measurement of the chamber neck in my M38 and it was .303/.304 towards the base of the neck. The Book of Cartridge Conversions and the Hornady manual lists the Swede's loaded cartridge neck diameter at .297 with a 264 bullets. I don't think you're going to find too many rifles with .013 slop per side up in the chamber. I'm not trying to be argumentive just suggesting you double check either your micrometer reading or if you grabbed a 7mm by mistake.

My post wasn't directed at any one person and I thought that would have been easy to see. If it seems I was sticking up for Larry maybe I was indirectly for the simple reason that he's not finished testing and has said he will do everything he can to conduct the tests under your terms and using the prescribed loading technique that you guys tell him to use. What else do you want him to do?

[StarMetal]

I'm not taking sides at all and I can assure you I know what you're talking about and also that your chamber neck is tapered. If you're case necks are tapered or not I don't know but for certain your chamber neck is. Probably .003 or .004 from shoulder/neck junction to the transition point of chamber to throat. Are you sure you measured a 6.5 when you came up with .324? I could see that neck diameter for a 7MM but it sounds overly large for a 6.5. Again looking at my book of chamber prints from PPG the 7x57 has a chamber neck diameter that tapers from .325 down to .322 (both rounded off a couple of tenths). And like I said I just took a rudimentary measurement of the chamber neck in my M38 and it was .303/.304 towards the base of the neck. The Book of Cartridge Conversions and the Hornady manual lists the Swede's loaded cartridge neck diameter at .297 with a 264 bullets. I don't think you're going to find too many rifles with .013 slop per side up in the chamber. I'm not trying to be argumentive just suggesting you double check either your micrometer reading or if you grabbed a 7mm by mistake.

My post wasn't directed at any one person and I thought that would have been easy to see. If it seems I was sticking up for Larry maybe I was indirectly for the simple reason that he's not finished testing and has said he will do everything he can to conduct the tests under your terms and using the prescribed loading technique that you guys tell him to use. What else do you want him to do?

I haven't been shooting anything much the past 1/2 year besides the two 6.5's. Had the Finn 39 out and the MAS 49/56. I'm positive and that's for both the 6.5 Swede and the 6.5MS.

I've read an original Norwegian website on the 6.5x55 and they say the bullet that was loaded was .263.

Joe

[geargnasher]

Joe, you still missed it on two points, or are ignoring them:

1) Swedish Mauser chamber necks are tapered by design, usually .003" total from base of neck to end of chamber. The brass trim length is about (on MY two M96s with MATCHING numbers) leaves about .025-28" of space between the end of the brass and end of the chamber, so the taper of the brass is a little less than .003, more like .0028" or so. Reference your favorite published dimensional drawing and it will reflect this as well.

Larry's question involved how you neck-turn a tapered case. I do it after sizing and the neck is a cylinder, but it makes fitting a headache.

2) How in heck are you getting a '06 case to form necks .0275" thick? thickest I've seen so far were only .0165".

If you loaded regular Swede brass in your gun and fit the neck like 45 2.1 says to do you could chamber a boolit with a diameter of .288"!!!!! A 7mm boolit would fall through the neck into the chamber. Most 7mm cases are only .315-.320" at the chamber neck!

I sincerely hope that was a typo.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Pat, you posted while I was composing! (had to go after a reloading book, argggg.).

Gear

[StarMetal]

Joe, you still missed it on two points, or are ignoring them:

1) Swedish Mauser chamber necks are tapered by design, usually .003" total from base of neck to end of chamber. The brass trim length is about (on MY two M96s with MATCHING numbers) leaves about .025-28" of space between the end of the brass and end of the chamber, so the taper of the brass is a little less than .003, more like .0028" or so. Reference your favorite published dimensional drawing and it will reflect this as well.

Larry's question involved how you neck-turn a tapered case. I do it after sizing and the neck is a cylinder, but it makes fitting a headache.

2) How in heck are you getting a '06 case to form necks .0275" thick? thickest I've seen so far were only .0165".

If you loaded regular Swede brass in your gun and fit the neck like 45 2.1 says to do you could chamber a boolit with a diameter of .288"!!!!! A 7mm boolit would fall through the neck into the chamber. Most 7mm cases are only .315-.320" at the chamber neck!

I sincerely hope that was a typo.

Gear

CRS Gear, it's .298-.299. That measurement is, oh, about the middle of the neck. So that's giving me about .015 thickness with the current brass. The brass I had before that was slightly thicker. I've tried a bunch of different military brands and LC and WCC53 so far have been the thicker. FA Match was pretty good but it gave up the ghost on me and I didn't have that many.

Sorry

Joe

[felix]

When the neck in a tapered neck, the neck measurements MUST be taken at the base of neck, and the brass modified to fit THERE, giving straight necked brass. The expander rod or mandrel should not cause much, if any, neck turning on the neck's front portion once the neck is expanded to allow entry of the mandrel. The whole neck must fit tight on the mandrel to get an accurate turn. ... felix

[StarMetal]

When the neck in a tapered neck, the neck measurements MUST be taken at the base of neck, and the brass modified to fit THERE, giving straight necked brass. The expander rod or mandrel should not cause much, if any, neck turning on the neck's front portion once the neck is expanded to allow entry of the mandrel. The whole neck must fit tight on the mandrel to get an accurate turn. ... felix

My expander rod has been modified to just open the brass up only about .002's smaller then the bullet. I mentioned in another post I make my own turning pilots and they are tight tight. In fact it has to be lubed as to not gull the insides of the case neck. They are getting turned pretty true and straight.

Joe

[Pat I.]

But once you fire it a few times isn't it just going to go back to being a tapered neck?

[Pat I.]

CRS Gear, it's .298-.299. That measurement is, oh, about the middle of the neck. So that's giving me about .015 thickness with the current brass. The brass I had before that was slightly thicker. I've tried a bunch of different military brands and LC and WCC53 so far have been the thicker. FA Match was pretty good but it gave up the ghost on me and I didn't have that many.

Sorry

Joe

Now I'm really confused.

[StarMetal]

But once you fire it a few times isn't it just going to go back to being a tapered neck?

Do you mean tapered cross section if you cut the neck in half length wise and that being from brass flow....or do you mean take on the taper of the chamber neck from obturating to it?

Joe

[StarMetal]

Now I'm really confused.

Spinning up the mic after passing the .275 mark by .023 on dial made it look Like I was at the .300 mark. The brass loaded with the .268 bullet is .297-.298 when I measure about the middle of the neck. I think to get a really accurate measure at different positions on the neck one would need a knife edge mic.

Joe

[geargnasher]

The only way I see to get accurate brass fitting in a Swede is make the neck tapered to fit the chamber on the outside, and shave the outside with an angled cutter, and ream or form the inside to a perfect cylinder to support the boolit, otherwise the case neck can expand enough to let filler squeeze in around the base of the boolit as the base of the case neck blows out to fit the larger chamber base.

Gear

[StarMetal]

The only way I see to get accurate brass fitting in a Swede is make the neck tapered to fit the chamber on the outside, and shave the outside with an angled cutter, and ream or form the inside to a perfect cylinder to support the boolit, otherwise the case neck can expand enough to let filler squeeze in around the base of the boolit as the base of the case neck blows out to fit the larger chamber base.

Gear

You don't have to go through all that trouble. 45 2.1 and I are shooting pretty decent not having to do that for sure. Y'all making this too complicated. This turned into a how to load the buffer procedure for the Swede....not a benchrest competition or rocket science.

Joe