45 2.1
Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.
Never sleep, never die
Knowledge is easy to get, but worthless if you never use it. However the info is free, so the only person you have to blame is yourself if you chose not to use the information.
45 2.1
Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.
Never sleep, never die
Knowledge is easy to get, but worthless if you never use it. However the info is free, so the only person you have to blame is yourself if you chose not to use the information.
i have been watching this thread...cause i have not shot cast out of my swede yet, and......i have been collecting "shot" buffer for a while with intent to use it as a filler..if it helps and can be done safely in bottleneck cases......so keep it up..i'm listening
mike in co
only accurate rifles are interesting
While I can't claim fantastic accuracy, so far I have found that filler is improving performance of my Lee Enfield No. 5 with cast boolits.
I know it is a controversial subject and there are pros and cons but I decided to try filler and so far am quite happy with it. My thoughts were to protect the base of the boolit, seal the bore and fill the cartridge so no chance of double charging with light loads.
Having said that, so far I have not used powder charges of less than half full cartridge so really, I am just ensuring 100% loading density.
In short, I was getting buckshot like groups at 50 yards even with "J" bullets. I slugged the bore and got 0.314" groove so lapped out my Lyman 314299 that cast at 0.312". The now better fit boolit helped improve accuracy. I also read several articles on using fillers so decided to try that. Here are two good articles on use of filler:
http://www.303british.com/id37.html
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...ller/index.asp
So far, no problems with filler (mostly Cream 'O Wheat) and I am getting the same level of accuracy with plain base or GC boolits without GC over filler as I am using GC boolits and no filler.
I certainly don't have all the answers and am still working on loads and learning but I like what I see so far.
I would be interested in other's results and loads using fillers.
Longbow
"i have been collecting "shot" buffer for a while with intent to use it as a filler..if it helps and can be done safely in bottleneck cases......so keep it up..i'm listening"
"Yeah, me too. I'm VERY interested to see where this thread's gonna go."
"I would be interested in other's results and loads using fillers."
Some things to think about:
1. Case fillers reduce case capacity. What was a starting load in an unfillered case might, and probably will, become a maximum load in the reduced case capacity caused by the filler.
2. Fast powders shouldn't be used with filler.
3. Medium burning powders might not be a good choice for fillers either. Think narrow safe range here.
4. Slow burning powders work best. Think slow for the cartridge here.
5. There are quite a bunch of fillers out there. They DO NOT work the same and differ in their characteristics depending on how much they are compressed and how much is used. What you have and use is for it only. Don't think it applies across the board to other fillers.
6. Success and safety depend on you and your reloading technique, which BTW is completely different than what someone else's technique is.
7. Some natural grain/bran fillers absorb moisture from the powder itself and change the powders burning rate. This can be quite a surprise down the road after you've stored it properly and tried it out 8 months after you loaded it.
8. The compression of the filler can cause it to bridge and produce a lot more pressure if it is compressed too much from a light to heavy compression.
9. Case capacity changes the way fillers act and work. The technique for a smaller case capacity might not produce the wanted results in a case of larger capacity.
Now, how do you get around these pitfalls?
1. Pick a slow for the cartridge powder, one which is a single based powder. High nitroglycerine content does not help here at all.
2. Determine its safe starting load (there is data out there, Dupont used to show all its powders and pressures for quite a few jacketed loads which is excellent data BTW).
3. DO NOT go below 80% density with slow burning powder unless useing filler with which you have some history with. "Lets try this" can be a dangerous game here.
4. Use a strong rifle for this until you can determine the practice is safe for a lesser strength rifle (like the Swedes, Argentines etc.).
5. Heavy for caliber boolits help here.
6. Have some sense about what your doing. If the bolt handle lifts hard, you've went way to far. If it is weak sounding, your underloaded and that can cause many problems itself.
7. Fillers work well in a fairly narrow range of loads. What you choose determines what you'll end up with.
8. Finding that happy midroad load to experiment with, for the powder and setup your trying can be difficult to find at the start.
Last edited by 45 2.1; 12-28-2009 at 03:05 PM.
45 2.1
Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.
Never sleep, never die
Knowledge is easy to get, but worthless if you never use it. However the info is free, so the only person you have to blame is yourself if you chose not to use the information.
Well finally I broke the ice. Now we're talking about doing things with the Swede and some even at high velocity. Just think, the other day a moderator got snotty with me threatening to close this thread...which he may still do out of spite.
I'm going to tell you just don't go filling your cases with buffer or you will run into big trouble. You need to know and understand what you are doing.
Maybe a light is coming in some of your heads. The name of the game is for buffer is cushioning and keep the heat off the bullet.
Joe
Not only true, but wise on the part of the posting experienced loader. However, without hard data, I'm where the original poster was before he learned what is being discussed.
I'm not exactly new to this game of casting and handloading, but I AM new to getting a 6.5 Swede to shoot cast boolits over MACH II. Without the data that was established to achieve this feat, I have no choice but to experiment until I either find the answer or give up from repeated failure.
Refering back to Felix's statement, if you're not willing to post the data on the forum, would you be willing to PM it on request? The other side of that, however, is, if things go south in my attempt to replicate your results by using your data, what's the difference between it happening to me versus a lurker that you don't know or never see?
Fellas, I swear on my Father's name, I'm not trying to start something here. I'm just thinking out loud. If I developed data that could be potentially dangerous, I'd have my reservations about mentioning it at all, never mind sharing it. As God in Heaven is my witness, there are things I have done and some things I still do that I would NEVER tell anybody about for that very reason. "My husband's in the emergency room with only two fingers left on his right hand because you said.....".
Put the gun down. I didn't mean this the way you think I did.
Don't try it on what you think you know. Many here think because they've tried just about every filler known to man that what can happen besides a bulged barrel. Well a lot more, let me tell you. How can I tell you, it's like explosives..if you don't put the explosive in the right exact place it won't do much but go boom. But in the right place it's deadly. Same with the filler. You can get away with doing it this way and that way nothing extraordinary happens. But if you do it exactly right...bingo.
Joe
I think I remember seeing many, hundreds maybe, of loads using Grex as filler in Cast Pics R&D in bottleneck cases by Buckshot. I still have a partial bag of PSB from Midway tucked away somewhere.
Charter Member #148
That's not quite as easy to do as it is to say. Using the search function in a forum like this with a gazillion (or gigazillion) posts to wade through just doesn't cut it when the message has been a bit cryptic. My initial note in this thread reflected the frustration of the cryptic nature of it all. It wasn't what you thought .
However, it seems today the secret is a lot less of a secret and I understand far better why...
Your hesitancy to get into this is now understood. Thanks for that.The part that hasn't been is about the use of FILLER. Nothing will be posted about that other than what all the reloading manuals say about fillers, "use filler only as directed". If you go thru the old posts here you won't find too much said about fillers, except those used in low velocity loads. Nothing much is posted about high velocity use. That is an area where you can goof up very easily. If any "expert" here wants to post on how to use various fillers for high velocity use and assume responsibility for his actions, then please do so. I don't think you'll see that though.
And thanks to Felix....
There are no secrets, really. The rules apply to all guns, not just the Swede. The name of the game is to make the entire case fit the chamber, and make the boolit fit within the case neck absolutely concentric. Some custom chambers are tighter than spec, and some cases are thicker than spec. Either one of these situations cause problems that no one likes to talk about on a general purpose board because of lurkers without experience in knowing when a situation is not normal before firing. In the military situation, the guns are sloppy enough to provide continuous fire in the most adverse conditions. That slop must be taken up entirely for the gun to shoot properly with any kind of lead projectile, and most especially when the boolit is long compared to the diameter. Therefore, standard cases cannot be used in this latter situation, like those used for commercial purposes, such as those designated by SAMMI. It is best to prepare cases from cases larger than spec, such as 30-06 cases which are on the fat side (military) for Swede military guns in particular. Neck turning would be required, and a total loaded round should hover in the 0.001 total clearance arena. In addition, the use of a slower than normal powder should be used which would allow the case to be filled to capacity so the boolit will be ejected as concentrically as possible into the grooves.
This was the most important part of what you said, Felix:
And I highly respect the caution behind it. I've done the same thing on other handloading issues for the exact same reason....because of lurkers without experience in knowing when a situation is not normal before firing.
Where 45 2.1 said:
This was really the root of my concern. When you talk 6.5x55 it may be assumed that you're also talking about the m/1896 Swedish Mauser. It would be an automatic assumption as the two just go together like bread & butter. I'm very glad to see here that you make the distinction. I kinda wish you'd make it #1 instead of #4 though .4. Use a strong rifle for this until you can determine the practice is safe for a lesser strength rifle (like the Swedes, Argentines etc.).
There are two areas in the vintage rifle world that I've taken on as personal crusades. 1- m/1896 Swedish Mauser safety and to promulgate continued stewardship in the study, research and use.
2- m/1889 Swedish rolling block 8x58R Danish to safeguard limits of safe and prudent handloading and use, moreso than study & research on this one as safety takes priority especially concerning new owners and shooters in their seeking out information as their search most often leads them into areas of incorrect information... that could be fatal.
So, in summary: What you're doing with high velocity (relative term) with cast bullets in the 6.5x55 (not exclusive to the Swedish Mauser) is you're walking a very narrow corridor from Point A to Point B with very little room for error. Small errors in a small ring pre-98 Mauser can, and do often, result in catastrophic failures of the receiver and/or bolt and/or barrel. These failures can also, sometimes, kill the shooter when the receiver grenades. Your hesitation to post an Alpha-Omega instruction guide is hereby understood. Thank you for that. I may now wave off potential experimenters when I'm asked about this practice with the m/96 Swede. Indeed, it should be something done only with experience and a 98 action in the least.
Dutch
Joe, I got your PM. Thanks, but I think I'll pass.
Shoot safely.
You're overrating it Dutch. Yeah it can get you into trouble. What 45 2.1 meant was if you know nothing about it and are going to dive into it, practice on a strong action. It will tell you when you over stepped the limits. A lessor action may not. Now with that out of the way to say you are walking a thin line using it...BALONEY. Both myself, 45 2.1, and others have been blasting away with this technique with many different rifles and calibers. Like I've said before in another post you take your life in your hands everytime you fire a reload you loaded, so in my opinion the technique done correctly (as reloads should be done correctly...no??) it's no more dangerous then a proper reload or factory round. Don't make it sound like a Cobra charmer.
Joe
There have been long, and pretty detailed articles in reputable magazines / books about using super grex, etc. for fillers. I would find one of those articles before proceeding too far. The "Cast Bullet Annual" that was published some time ago is one. There were three of the annuals published if I remember correctly, and one of them had quite a bit of info on fillers.
I'm having mind transference with this topic that you can't appreciate because you're not here. Its the failure of a typed word to translate the entire thought.
Think of it as if we were talking about young sweet tender 21 year old wimmin and the inherent dangers of inadvertent baby making. It can either be lots of fun or a lifetime of misery.
Apparently you've never known one of those innocent [looking] sweet Catholic school girls who could charm the cobra?
How do you tell a Catholic nun and a Hollywood Blvd. hooker apart?
(if the Catholic nun is on Hollywood Blvd at night she's a hooker)
Dutch
Not exactly like that, kinda akin to walking down a viking knarr versus a U.S. destroyer (you can still fall into the sea on either one though). A lot less room to walk in, but your not going thru fat mans squeeze in a cave either. Done within resonable limits, it's quite easy (and safe) to do....... if one follows directions (which few people seldom do). Felix described the problem quite well.
I've made the offer several times to actually teach someone to do this safely, one on one, but most people here seem to proud to do that. Several have though. It requires you know how to safely experiment with the proper components. Just like going to school to learn something you didn't know.
Last edited by 45 2.1; 12-28-2009 at 08:09 PM.
45 2.1
Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.
Never sleep, never die
Knowledge is easy to get, but worthless if you never use it. However the info is free, so the only person you have to blame is yourself if you chose not to use the information.
Well my next step with both my 6.5 and 25/303 was to use fillers,I have a bottle of Puff-Lon to try with AR 2209 powder,sold in the states as Hodgden 4350,I have already had success with slower powders,AR2217(Hodgden H1000) simply by filling the case up to the top and seating a 225grn boolit over it in my 303's and it does work,the recoil is toey though.Reading through the Puff-Lon website they actually say to use slower powders with reduced loads and fill the case totally full.Just a question,what causes the danger?,does trying to squeeze the filler through the neck spike pressures?,I really do agree that slow is better in regards to that.Joe I'm glad you have posted this up,the trouble with the internet we can only talk with words,not face to face. Pat
45 2.1
I've made the offer several times to actually teach someone to do this safely, one on one, but most people here seem to proud to do that. Several have though. It requires you know how to safely experiment with the proper components. Just like going to school to learn something you didn't know.
So I'm not too proud at all. I am quite willing to take the lessons and and I do know how to safely experiment given the proper componants. I also can measure the psi including a visual of the time/pressure curve via the Oehler M43. I've a very good milsurp M38 barrel in a Mexican SR M98 action that is very accurate all set up for the M43. I would really like to hear from you either here or via PM. I believe we, by working together, can confirm your work in this area with hard data. Everyone here may then know of the real psi dangers exhistant or not. I am looking forward to hearing from you.
Larry Gibson
I would very much like to learn what other people have tried with fillers and what their results were.
I have been using fillers for about 3 years so far with positive results, or at least positive results in my view and no negative results. I am certainly no expert though.
I am sure there are many reasons that people want to use fillers. 100% loading density is one good reason and I have read many comments stating if you want 100% loading density then use a case full of slow burning powder.
True enough but that doesn't address reduced loads. Not everyone wants to shoot full loads all the time.
Also, if the powder is slow burning then wouldn't it act as its own granular filler with unburned powder being rammed past the shoulder and through the neck? I doubt the slow powders completely burn in the cartridge and if that is true then they are no more than a granular filler as the unburned powder exits the cartridge to burn on its way down the barrel.
Another comment was to use black powder as filler but again, if the charge is not completely consumed in the cartridge then the black powder would be an awful lot like COW or other granular fillers as it was compressed going through the shoulder and neck then burning further down the barrel.
Correct me if I am mistaken here.
All in all, I suspect that if there was a lot of friction involved in extruding the filler past the shoulder then brass would stretch at an alarming rate and I haven't seen that.
I welcome corrections, comments ~ or best more information.
Longbow
I'm still trying to figure out how that 130gr flatnosed lovern style bullet @2300 fps shoots flatter than my 140 gr Hornady spire point@ almost 3200 fps! puzzled
Charter Member #148
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