Selling cast bullets ?

[45nut]

the atf,,and every other .gov regulations are vague on purpose..............

“There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.” —Ayn Rand

if regs were clear and concisely clear enough to avoid,, well,, see the quote.

[1874Sharps]

I was told by the BATFE on the phone that production of any ammunition components for commercial purposes must be licensed. I did ask in particular if it was OK to make components such as cast boolits for personal reloading and was told that was fine. The only time a license is required from the BATFE is when one is making ammo or ammo components for sale (antique guns excepted).

[Nate1778]

Most of them don't know their butt from a hole in the ground.

Last night while unwinding and reading this post, I had an alcohol induced epiphany. I have heard this term more than once in my life and never really sat down to think about it and its origin.

What circumstances came into play to derive such a comment. What awkward moment from a guy whom had to scratch his posterior and instead scratched the earth.

My final moment of realization was someone probably told someone to stick it where the sun don't shine, and that person stuck "it" in the ground instead. I also realized I had a buzz going on and went to bed.

[Shiloh]

the atf,,and every other .gov regulations are vague on purpose..............

“There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.” —Ayn Rand

if regs were clear and concisely clear enough to avoid,, well,, see the quote.

Gov't regs are vague. This allows them to be interpreted. The words can be twisted, contorted, and morphed to be applied as needed. For the benefit of enforcement, with the odds naturally going to the house.

Shiloh

[Netherwolf]

...The only time a license is required from the BATFE is when one is making ammo or ammo components for sale (antique guns excepted).

I think I'd be leery about what you were told on the phone. Some "antique guns" i.e. those manufacturered before 18... (whatever the year is), use the same style/size projos as "moderen" firearms. Manufacturing & selling 45LC projos for use in an "antique" Peacemaker, for example, might not be seen that way by BATFE. Aside from shot & single projos larger than 50cal, the "antique guns excepted" sounds like a trick bag to me with, as said earlier, the odds in favor of the gooberment house. Just my 2 cents worth.
Netherwolf

[Shiloh]

The ATF's website sucks. It's not easy to find what you're looking for or get a clear easy explanation. From what information I can gather you need an 06 license to manufacture bullets (except armor piercing) for sell. I see nothing about making them for yourself. That's ridiculous what the AFT told the poster. I would expect two things talking to most (not all) ATF agents over the phone: 1. They lie and 2. Most of them don't know their butt from a hole in the ground.

Joe

I would expect two things talking to most (not all) ATF agents over the phone:

1.) They lie.
2.) Most of them don't know their butt from a hole in the ground.

I would tend to agree with this. With emphasis on #2. The agents don't need to know, they do what they are told. This agency is a law unto themselves.

We have heard of the contortions they go to in applying the law.
A semi-auto firearm is altered in an ATF machine shop and is classified as a machine gun for prosecutorial purposes. Evidence against Randy Weaver of Ruby Ridge infamy destroyed, other evidence manufactured. He walks, gets a settlement from the gov't.

Remember the scandal of the two drunk ATF agents in a bar? When told to keep it down, they threw live round of ammo at the bar employee.
What about the pocket knives with the logo ATF, Always Think Forfeiture.

I don't want to tangle with this agency at all. The cards are stacked against you. If charged and prosecuted by this agency, it means prison at the worst,
Bankrupcy and the loss of everything at the least.

Shiloh

[outdoorfan]

Like most aspects of the government these days, they legislate and enforce under the color of law.

[ph4570]

While I have no doubts about the accuracy of freakshow's information. I wonder what it takes to get BATF modivated to go after someone (not that I intend to push that envelope). How many sellers on various forums, online auctions etc. do you suspect have the proper paperwork in place? Were the BATF to go after them all Nobama would have to swell the BATF staff enormously. But then mayhaps Nobama would like that -- job generator.

[bigboredad]

thanks a ton freakshow you probably just saved me a ton of headaches and money

[KYCaster]

I wonder what it takes to get BATF modivated to go after someone (not that I intend to push that envelope).

I can tell you about a case involving a friend of mine. It takes a call to the BATF from a "concerned citizen" with an accusation. In this case it was "He's selling machine guns".

Based on that tip alone, the ATF raided his home at 3:00 AM and confiscated every gun related object they could find, a collection of knives and martial arts paraphenalia, a couple of computers and anything else that looked like it might contain files or documents.

After nearly eight years, with failing health and failing finances he finally plead guilty to one count of selling a handgun out of state, just to end the ordeal.

And what started all this?....he traded a Dan Wesson revolver to man he worked with and the guy used it to kill himself. The guy's mother made the call to ATF.

BTW....in the stuff they confiscated they did find a Glock magazine that was stamped "law enforcement only". This was while the capacity limit was in effect and the mag was in a box-of-stuff that he had taken in a trade and he was not aware that it contained the illegal mag.

There's a whole lot more to this story than I've written here, but the point is, the raid was based on a false tip from someone who had an axe to grind and the illegal magazine was enough evidence to allow them to scrutinize everything he had ever done.

So it seems to me it doesn't take much to get their attention.

Jerry

[chris in va]

How about this...can you GIVE someone boolits as a gift if they pay shipping?

[MOUNTAIN MIKE]

Hello.

You boys are so afraid of batf.why? You get trouble when you look for trouble is whati have learned in my lifetime. Many people are happily engaged in selling bullets-cast or swages- and are making a few bucks with it.

E-mail dave corbin at corbin swage site and he will give you the low-down.

The $10.00 per year for a 3 year liscense is fair enough so quite looking for excuses for not doing something.you may not get rich doing casting but you will have good memories of the people you meet.

One last question-what would you consider being the best seller of a cast bullet? .308, 9mm,38spec hbwc,.700 monster bullet ?

Thanks,mountain mike

[mpmarty]

Years ago I had an FFL license and ran a store. My dealings with the BATF were all good. They were quick to answer questions and I never had any problems with them. Treat 'em like cops and ya do fine.

[Willbird]

BATF does not enforce the ITAR rules, they DO jam up people who have an FFL and do not follow the ITAR rules because if you have an FFL you must be in compliance with all OTHER federal, state, and local regulations as well.

ANOTHER thing about ITAR is not only do you need to have it to sell cast bullets, you need to have it to make and sell bullet MOLDS or any other tools or equipment that is used to make things that require ITAR.

Bill

[Adam10mm]

Hello.

You boys are so afraid of batf.why? You get trouble when you look for trouble is whati have learned in my lifetime. Many people are happily engaged in selling bullets-cast or swages- and are making a few bucks with it.

There's a difference between doing something and doing something legally.

[Willbird]

Hello.

You boys are so afraid of batf.why? You get trouble when you look for trouble is whati have learned in my lifetime. Many people are happily engaged in selling bullets-cast or swages- and are making a few bucks with it.

E-mail dave corbin at corbin swage site and he will give you the low-down.

The $10.00 per year for a 3 year liscense is fair enough so quite looking for excuses for not doing something.you may not get rich doing casting but you will have good memories of the people you meet.

One last question-what would you consider being the best seller of a cast bullet? .308, 9mm,38spec hbwc,.700 monster bullet ?

Thanks,mountain mike

An FFL is no big deal, but $2250 per year for ITAR IS a big deal.

[deltaenterprizes]

BATF does not enforce the ITAR rules, they DO jam up people who have an FFL and do not follow the ITAR rules because if you have an FFL you must be in compliance with all OTHER federal, state, and local regulations as well.

ANOTHER thing about ITAR is not only do you need to have it to sell cast bullets, you need to have it to make and sell bullet MOLDS or any other tools or equipment that is used to make things that require ITAR.

Bill

When did ITAR go into effect? I had 06 FFL for 12 years starting in 1985 and there was none of anything you are refering to regarding hand casting bullet casting equipment, only automated equipment. It is considered ''war machinery". I did business with at least 4 commercial loaders and NONE of them had any ITAR paper work.
I just sent a manual casting machine that produces 1500/hr to Sweden and there was no problem exporting it.

[Adam10mm]

ITAR went into effect in 1976 during the Cold War and was implemented under Ford to control certain articles and technologies to the Eastern Bloc.

[Willbird]

ATF has just recently started beating the drum about ITAR, only within the last 10 years, with increasing pressure as we got closer to present times. This is a thinly veiled attempt to force smaller mfg out of gun related business's. if you read the ITAR regs the ONLY exemptions are for shotguns and ammo for sporting use, none for sporting or defense use small arms.

The owner or Ranch products that makes moon clips for revolvers got jammed up because he was not ITAR registered.

State Dept. Cracks Down on Moon Clips

by Dave Workman
Senior Editor

Gun accessories manufacturer Steven Crawford has a problem, and anyone familiar with revolvers designed to chamber rimless pistol cartridges may find his sad tale simply astonishing.

Crawford is apparently in trouble with the US Department of State for manufacturing, and offering for export, moon clips—the thin, flat accessory into which rimless pistol cartridges are clipped so they may be used in revolvers. Even that isn’t quite accurate, because not all of the moon clips he produces under the Ranch Products banner are considered taboo, just some of them. All of this leaves Crawford scratching his head nervously, and his moon clips classified as “munitions” under the State Department’s International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR).

Topping off his woes, Crawford fears the State Department could actually declare him to have been out of compliance with the regulation since Ranch Products first began stamping out the innocuous metal cartridge clips, and that was way back in 1975. If that is the case, the agency could assess his company for “unpaid fees” dating back over 25 years.

Crawford’s problem with the State Department began in July of last year when the agency’s Office of Defense Trade Controls notified Ranch Products by mail that, “This office has reason to believe that Ranch Products is involved in the manufacture and/or exporting of defense articles.” What led that office to reach its conclusion was a visit to the Ranch Products website.

In the July letter signed by Delores T. Kinard for Branch Chief Deborah Carroll, Crawford was warned, “The failure of manufacturers and/or exporters to register and maintain their registrations with this office constitutes a violation of the Arms Export Control Act and the International Traffic in Arms Regulations and could result in criminal penalties of 10 years imprisonment and/or $1,000,000 in fine plus administrative penalties of $500,000. It is recommended that your firm register immediately.”

Crawford quickly fired off a reply to Carroll, noting, “As far as Ranch Products can determine, none of our civilian after-market loading tools, accessories, or cleaning/disassembly items have any connection or use with defense articles or defense services.”

Kinard responded to that letter, advising Crawford that, “I would advise that products manufactured and/or exported do not have to be be Significant Military Equipment to require registration and licensing. Accordingly, this office still strongly believes that registration is required and recommends that Ranch Products register immediately.”

Gun Week’s calls to the State Department were not returned by press time.

Ranch Products is based in Malinta, OH. Since 1975, the company has produced a full selection of moon clips for 9mm, 10mm, .45 ACP and .38/.357-caliber revolvers. Moon clips have been around since early in the last century, when they were used to adapt large-frame Colt and Smith & Wesson Model 1917 revolvers to accept .45 ACP cartridges. The company also produces a line of specialty loading and unloading tools, a complete selection of magazine releases for Ruger firearms, slide releases for Glock pistols, and specialty scope mounts for Ruger 10/22, Mini-14 and Mini-30 rifles, plus Mauser and SKS rifles.

According to a letter sent to Crawford by the State Department’s Carol B. Basden, Ranch Products’ moon clips, extended releases and scope mount bases are “subject to the licensing jurisdiction of the Department of State. . . .” The letter also stated that, “The items are designated as defense articles under Category I(h) of the United States Munitions List.”

When Gun Week checked the Munitions List on the State Department’s website, Category I(h) was listed only on a somewhat obscure link to the Federal Register. It was apparently added as an amendment to the List in April of last year. That subsection specifically refers to “Components, parts, accessories and attachments for. . .” arms as defined in earlier subsections. Included in those definitions are “firearms or other weapons . . . having a special military application regardless of caliber.”

The .45 ACP moon clips were originally designed to fit Model 1917 revolvers, which were military handguns early in the last century.

Crawford told Gun Week that he had sent the State Department nine copies of a nine-page report—apparently as required by the agency—explaining exactly what his products are, along with samples. Enroute, he said, the US Postal Service irradiated the package to check it for anthrax. He sent this “request for commodity jurisdiction determination” on Sept. 30, 2002. He did not get a reply until Jan. 22 of this year.


Under the State Department guidelines, according to Basden’s letter, Ranch Products needs to register with that agency under the tenets of the Arms Export Control Act and ITAR, which requires such registration of “anyone who engages . . . in the business of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles. . . .”

Ranch Products offers these moon clips and other accessories for international sale. This is where their products fall under the State Department’s jurisdiction.

Crawford contended that the term “accessories” is “very loosely defined” by the State Department. Curiously, the agency does not require licensing of loading tools for .22-caliber pistols and an unloading tool for the removal of empty cartridges from moon clips, explaining that “These accessories do not enhance the usefulness, effectiveness, or capabilities of the firearm.”

Evidently, the agency is only concerned with accessories or after-market parts that may be “critical to the proper functioning/operation of the firearm.”

Crawford has contacted attorney Stephen Halbrook at the suggestion of the National Rifle Association in an effort to straighten out this problem.

[fourdollarbill]

Gov't regs are vague. This allows them to be interpreted. The words can be twisted, contorted, and morphed to be applied as needed. For the benefit of enforcement, with the odds naturally going to the house.

That is somewhat true. If you want to read it here are the ABC's of the US Code complete from beginning to end (definitions to penalties) just for making and selling cast lead bullets.

NOTE: This is a personal digest intended to keep my a$$ out of jail and should only be used to answer one question. Can I make cast bullets and sell them legaly.

Here it is...

United States Code
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS
Section 921. Definitions
Section 922. Unlawful Acts
Section 923. Licensing
Section 924. Penalties
Section 925. Exceptions: Relief From Disabilities
Section 925A. Remedy For Erroneous Denial Of Firearm
Section 926. Rules And Regulations
Section 926A. Interstate Transportation Of Firearms
Section 927. Effect On State Law
Section 928. Separability
Section 929. Use Of Restricted Ammunition
Section 930. Possession Of Firearms And Dangerous Weapons In Federal Facilities
Section 931. Prohibition On Purchase, Ownership, Or Possession Of Body Armor By Violent Felons



Section 921. Definitions

(a) As used in this chapter -
(1) The term "person" and the term "whoever" include any
individual, corporation, company, association, firm, partnership,
society, or joint stock company.

(10) The term "manufacturer" means any person engaged in the
business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of
sale or distribution; and the term "licensed manufacturer" means
any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

(17)(A) The term "ammunition" means ammunition or cartridge
cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in
any firearm.

(21) The term "engaged in the business" means -
(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who
devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as
a regular course of trade or business with the principal
objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or
distribution of the ammunition manufactured;

(22) The term "with the principal objective of livelihood and
profit" means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of
firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary
gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating
a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit
shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and
repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal
purposes or terrorism. For purposes of this paragraph, the term
"terrorism" means activity, directed against United States persons,
which -



Section 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful -
(1) for any person -

(B) except a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, to
engage in the business of importing or manufacturing
ammunition, or in the course of such business, to ship,
transport, or receive any ammunition in interstate or foreign
commerce;


Section 923. Licensing

(a) No person shall engage in the business of importing,
manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or
manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with
and received a license to do so from the Attorney General. The
application shall be in such form and contain only that information
necessary to determine eligibility for licensing as the Attorney
General shall by regulation prescribe and shall include a
photograph and fingerprints of the applicant. Each applicant shall
pay a fee for obtaining such a license, a separate fee being
required for each place in which the applicant is to do business,
as follows:
(1) If the applicant is a manufacturer -
(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices
or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year;
(B) of firearms other than destructive devices, a fee of $50
per year; or
(C) of ammunition for firearms, other than ammunition for
destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $10
per year.


Section 924. Penalties

(a)(1) Except as otherwise provided in this subsection,
subsection (b), (c), or (f) of this section, or in section 929,
whoever -
(D) willfully violates any other provision of this chapter,
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than five
years, or both.