45Auto vs. 45Colt

[StarMetal]

Can you still shoot it with ACP brass after having the cylinder modified for Auto Rim??

On my convertible cylinder the ACP case goes in the chamber almost to the front of the rim. I believe all that would need taken off the rear of the cylinder to let Auto Rim cases fit would be the thickness of a moon clip. So in other words I believe most the case would be i the chamber, just the extractor groove showing. Me personally I'd get another ACP cylinder to modify so the gun is still original.

Joe

[Dale53]

I am not sure I understand the desire to modify the Ruger .45 ACP cylinder to accommodate the use of .45 Auto Rim. If you want a rimmed case, the .45 Colt cylinder is there. If you want a short rimmed case, then you can use .45 Cowboy Special cases in the .45 Colt cylinder.

The use of .45 Auto Rim cases in an S&W 625 (chambered in .45 ACP) is quite useful as it eliminates the NEED for full moon clips necessary for proper ejection when using .45 ACP cases. However, in the Ruger Single Action, since you eject the ACP's just like you do a rimmed case, what is the driving force behind wanting/needing the Auto Rim case?

I'm not intending to be critical here, just trying to understand...

Dale53

[azrednek]

i am not sure i understand the desire to modify the ruger .45 acp cylinder to accommodate the use of .45 auto rim. If you want a rimmed case, the .45 colt cylinder is there. If you want a short rimmed case, then you can use .45 cowboy special cases in the .45 colt cylinder.

i was thinking more along the lines as another poster suggested and getting another cylinder for use with 45ar. It is hard to explain why other than the simplicity and convenience because the majority of my loading and shooting the past two years has been with 45ar. There really isn't a need, it is not necessary but just like i have been asked why i re-barreled a stevens rifle from 300 to 458 win mag. Other than "i want one" don't really have a legitimate reason. I guess i'm using the same logic as many of the younger shooters i see at the range with their black rifles loaded with all kinds of bells and whistles on picanny rails i consider pretty useless. Guess it gives one's gun and the gun's owner a unique personality and bragging rights on having a custom gun.

the use of .45 auto rim cases in an s&w 625 (chambered in .45 acp) is quite useful as it eliminates the need for full moon clips necessary for proper ejection when using .45 acp cases. However, in the ruger single action, since you eject the acp's just like you do a rimmed case, what is the driving force behind wanting/needing the auto rim case?

I'm not intending to be critical here, just trying to understand...

dale i know exactly where you're coming from and i certainly understand your curiosity on something that most consider an unnecessary bell and whistle. Don't mind your questions at all. Wish i could have given you a better answer and hope you don't take me as being rude with the best reason in currently in my mind, "i want one". Chances are good once i see the cost of the project it will likely go on my short list of projects awaiting my winning lottery ticket!!

dale53

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[Dale53]

azrednek;
"I WANT ONE" is a perfectly good answer!!

I am an Auto Rim man myself (on track to shooting about 5000+ this year through my two 625's).

My recent acquisition of a Ruger SS Bisley .45 Colt/.45 ACP convertible was prompted by a MUCH better reason (NOT). I, ahem!, needed one for "Academic Reasons"...

Well, it can certainly be argued that I need one to explore the reloading possibilities of a "Convertible". In my youth, I had a new 1955 Buick Super Convertible (Robin's egg above and Royal Blue below) that I certainly explored "reloading" but that is not QUITE the same thing...

Dale53

[StrawHat]

When it comes to revolvers, more specifically a S&W 25 or 625. Which caliber do you like better and why? I already load and cast for both calibers. I personally like both, but have to admit I like the 45Colt more. However the only experience with the 45Auto has been in a 1911. Also fill me in on the 45AR.

Thank you.

I have a couple of N frames in 45 ACP and one chambered for the Long Colt. I find the ACP revolvers to be more accurate but I have worked with load development much more with those revolvers. For the Long Colt, I have stuck with the 454424 bullet and Unique powder. Hopefully, I will be using the 283 GB boolit in it this summer. Same with the ACP, looking to find a load for the 283 GB.

As you have a lot of experience with the Long Colt, get one of those, first. I recommend a 4" but ...


Good Luck

[anachronism]

I detest moon clips.

[Mk42gunner]

I am not sure I understand the desire to modify the Ruger .45 ACP cylinder to accommodate the use of .45 Auto Rim. If you want a rimmed case, the .45 Colt cylinder is there. If you want a short rimmed case, then you can use .45 Cowboy Special cases in the .45 Colt cylinder.

The use of .45 Auto Rim cases in an S&W 625 (chambered in .45 ACP) is quite useful as it eliminates the NEED for full moon clips necessary for proper ejection when using .45 ACP cases. However, in the Ruger Single Action, since you eject the ACP's just like you do a rimmed case, what is the driving force behind wanting/needing the Auto Rim case?

I'm not intending to be critical here, just trying to understand...

Dale53

Dale, I think it is just the desire to make your gun more versitile, by allowing the use of auto rim brass. As I understand it the AR was basically dead until Starline started making brass for it a few years ago.

I am currently fitting a .45ACP cylinder to my Bisley Vaquero; it works, but the barrel cylider gap is a little tight. Right now I don't forsee modifying it for AR brass; the only reason I would do it is if I came into several thousand rounds of brass free.

My recent acquisition of a Ruger SS Bisley .45 Colt/.45 ACP convertible was prompted by a MUCH better reason (NOT). I, ahem!, needed one for "Academic Reasons"...

Come on Dale, you don't need to make excuses; we're all a bunch of enablers around here.



Robert

[45 2.1]

I detest moon clips.

But there the fastest 45 wheelgun reload you'll have. What you don't like is the loading/unloading process those clips entail.

[Bucks Owin]

was shooting a 4-6'' group at 50' sizing the 255gr Keith to .452

bumped it up to .454 and the group shrank to 1.5''

the recoil is a little stiffer but the cases dont show excessive pressure

Doc.

Yep, and I bet your throats are on the generous side too. Mine did the same thing at 75'. Went from lousy to excellent accuracy. (I can't feel any difference in recoil between .452" and .454" though!?!) FWIW, Dennis

[Dale53]

When you choose barrel length, keep in mind that both of these calibers make good deer hunting pieces. Check your State Regulations and be sure that both the caliber you choose and the barrel length is legal.

In Ohio "or handgun with 5-in. minimum length barrel, using straight-walled cartridges .357 caliber or larger"

So, here, either caliber is legal but the barrel length minimum is 5". If you only have one handgun then barrel length becomes VERY important.

I have a Red Dot on both of my 625 ACP's and have come to slightly prefer the 5" barrel length. However, the 4" shoots VERY well and is a bit less bulky with the 1" shorter barrel IF you are not going to be using this for hunting.

I have shot all of my deer with .44 Magnums. However, for woods hunting, I doubt that we would see any difference in performance of a properly loaded .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .45 ACP/AUTO Rim (with a 250 gr Keith or LBT WFN bullet), or a .45 Colt at 100 yards or under.

I know that statement will set a lot of you fellows and gals back on your heels but I sincerely believe that. Many have been successful with the .357 magnum on deer but I would rather have a 250 gr .452 Keith or WFN at 900-1000 fps than a .357" at 1400 for this work. My preference would be a little bit stouter, say a .45 Colt with a 250 gr .452 bullet at 1000-1200 fps (that would put the performance level right up there with my beloved .44 Magnums), but still, I would NOT feel undergunned with a good 625 .45 ACP at the performance levels I have discussed.

Dale53

[1874Sharps]

Dale53,

You may very well be right about the efficacy of the slower-moving big bore heavy boolits on game. Consider how many deer and men (on both sides of the law) have been killed by the 44 WCF (44-40). Yes, perhaps the velocity was a bit higher coming out of a carbine vice a pistol, but still the big bores are formidible.

[anachronism]

But there the fastest 45 wheelgun reload you'll have. What you don't like is the loading/unloading process those clips entail.

Not really. If you lose your moon clips, you may as well chuck the gun in the creek. Most 625s won't headspace & fire loose ammo. My last one didn't. A friend has gone through a couple of them & neither of his would headspace & fire loose ammo either. He shoots mostly AR brass anymore, and I went to the 44 magnum as my large bore. Bent moon clips aren't much fun either.

[35remington]

I hate bent moon clips. These misfire as the spring clips absorb the firing pin blow and saps some of the hammer's energy.

Also, if the clips have considerable fouling, this can cushion the firing pin blow and lead to misfires. Clips should always be free of excessive dirt and lube and mine are.

My first six shots are always AR cases. FWIW. These HAVE TO fire, and I load the ammo most likely to do so.

Reloads can be and are in clips. But I also have two speedloaders in Auto Rim and these are preferred to the clips when it really matters.

Now, Jerry Miculek can set records in shooting and reloading with his clips, but I most often prefer running revolvers with ammo that has a rim when it truly matters. Besides, no matter what, I ain't gonna be as fast as Jerry anyway, so I go for the reliable and less likely to be damaged speedloader.

Introducing an additional piece of metal that increases headspace slack (the clips often have to drag other cartridges forward into their chambers when hit by the firing pin and this weakens the firing pin blow; an Auto Rim cartridge does not) always has the potential to decrease the reliability of the revolver. Sometimes it does just that if the clips are not carefully looked after. If the revolver is fired at an upward angle, the firing pin and clip will have to drag several cartridges forward into their chambers before the full firing pin blow can be delivered to the primer being struck.

Not good!

But I admit to using full moon clips quite a lot, and my homemade demooner pipe makes it reasonably convenient to deal with them.

[azrednek]

I don't mind full moon clips. Fortunately I started scarfing them up years ago when they were as dirt cheap as Garrand clips. I trashed all my half-moon clips years ago. As I accumulate more AR brass I'm using the clips less.

Also, if the clips have considerable fouling, this can cushion the firing pin blow and lead to misfires. Clips should always be free of excessive dirt and lube and mine are.

I toss my clips into the tumbler along with the brass.

[Mk42gunner]

I had a Model 25-2 that had been reworked by Ron Power, it would headspace and fire surplus .45's without a problem. I ended up selling it for a couple of reasons:
1. It shot extremely high with 230 Grain ball, and I didn't like the tall front sight needed to bring it to point of aim. (It would put 185's in tiny clusters on top of the front sight).
2. A Commander waived way more money at me than I had in it.

I made a fullmoon unloader with a six inch piece of 1/2" copper and an end cap, file a step on the open end and twist the cases out of the clip.

Robert

[StrawHat]

When you choose barrel length, keep in mind that both of these calibers make good deer hunting pieces. Check your State Regulations and be sure that both the caliber you choose and the barrel length is legal.

In Ohio "or handgun with 5-in. minimum length barrel, using straight-walled cartridges .357 caliber or larger"

So, here, either caliber is legal but the barrel length minimum is 5". If you only have one handgun then barrel length becomes VERY important.

Very true and good advice, I did not consider that when I made the recommendation of the 4" barrel. I still prefer the 4" but do use the 6" here in Ohio for whitetailed deer.

However, for woods hunting, I doubt that we would see any difference in performance of a properly loaded .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .45 ACP/AUTO Rim (with a 250 gr Keith or LBT WFN bullet), or a .45 Colt at 100 yards or under.

but still, I would NOT feel undergunned with a good 625 .45 ACP at the performance levels I have discussed.

Dale53

I have not yet used the 45 ACP so loaded but I do use the Ketih bullet over a full case of black powder for deer. So far I have not recovered a slug.

[StrawHat]

Not really. If you lose your moon clips, you may as well chuck the gun in the creek. Most 625s won't headspace & fire loose ammo. My last one didn't. A friend has gone through a couple of them & neither of his would headspace & fire loose ammo either. He shoots mostly AR brass anymore, and I went to the 44 magnum as my large bore. Bent moon clips aren't much fun either.

Sorry to hear that S&W went the Colt 1917 route with bored through cylinders. It must have been a $$ thing. Too bad, the 25-2s that I am used to all give great performance with ACP ammo clipped or naked and with AR ammo.

[NHlever]

I just bought a Ruger 4 5/8" .45 Colt convertable. It's back in the shop (Ruger) for some sight issues right now, but I'm sure looking forward to loading for it, and shooting it. I too see no reason why the ACP cylinder wouldn't work just fine for walkabout hunting, whitetails, or the occassional Russian wild boar we see around here. By the way, I once read that a 158-180 grain cast semiwadcutter or WFN at 1100 fps out of a .357 will do anything that caliber will do out of a handgun for hunting, and tend to agree with that. Rifles, of course are a different story.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Dale53,

I totally agree with your statement about any of the standard large caliber handguns loaded with decent bullets for deer hunting (and black bear and elk, etc.). If you knock a big hole through the vitals of an animal you soon have a dead animal. We don't need all that extra velocity at close range. At long range, it flattens trajectory somewhat, but I'm not sure many folks can really take advantage of that.

Regarding John Linebaugh's suggestion of a 250-260 SWC at 900. I read that article many times and have implemented his suggestion in my .45 ACP 625 4". My load is 6.5 grains of Unique and a Mt. Baldy 255 Keith in Starline Auto Rim brass. Shoots great and kills deer very nicely. I've killed four deer with this pistol in the past two seasons. None went further than 25 yards (which is much better than the rifle shot deer I've observed) and the big hole went all the way through and obviously, no bullets have been or likely will be recovered.

It sure makes hunting lots more fun.

Wayne

[Dale53]

Wayne Dobbs;
Thanks for your comments. I HAD to qualify my statement as all of my deer were taken with the .44 magnum. However, on one particular hunt, I had run out of my hunting load (didn't realize I was so low) and ended up using my practice load (a 250 gr Keith at 1200 fps). Even tho' this was from a .44 magnum, that performance level can be reached with a .44 Special heavy load. You know what, the deer never knew the difference.

It is nice to have my statement confirmed with your ACTUAL experience.

Dale53