Q's on the .45 Colt

[Larry Gibson]

Sooty cases are an indication of a very light load that doesn't blow the case out effectively to seal it against the chamber wall.

Castaway hit the nail on the head. I've loaded for three rifle/revolver combinations and I had similar problems in load developemnt with all three. The revolver is the limiting factor. if a Colt SAA or one of it's slones is used. Another is the restrictions on bullet weight and velocity for cowboy make believe. I currently have an Uberti 5 1/2" barreled SAA and a M92 Rossi rifle with 24" barrel both in .45 Colt.

One thing I learned with the first rifle/revolver combo I had is if the load shoots well in the rifle it will most often shoots well in the revolver. Thus load for the rifle and use it in the revolver. Of course safe loads for the weakest of the two drive the train. With the .45 Colt I found the classic load of the 255 gr Keith SWC over 8.5 gr Unique shot great in the Uberti revolver was only so-so in the rifle. Another problem was definately case obturation. In the rifle the pressure was not sufficient to expand the W-W cases and seal the chamber. Besides the sooty cases I got a puff of gas blow back to the forehead with each shot. That's generally not a problem with Marlins but it is with open top Winchesters. I had the very same problem with a M94 .44 Mag and the lighter loads. I could up the charge of Unique to obturate the case but those loads were pushing the Uberti SAA. Also the 1-30" twist was giving some accuracy problems with the 255 gr bullets at the 1000 fps the 8.5 gr Unique was doing in the rifle. At 100 yards I was geting very large groups of 12+" and definate indications of keyholing.

I found happiness with a Lee 200 gr RNFP cowboy bullet over 7.5 gr Bullseye. Velocity is 1206 out of the rifle with excellent accuracy to 200 yards (just the farthest I've plinked with it so far). Out of the Uberti the same load does 932 fps with accuracy around 1 1/2 - 2" at 25 yards. No more obturation woes and just fun shooting. Bullets are cast of range lead with added tin or WWs. They dropp at .454 from the Lee 2 cavity mould and are sized .454 and lubed with Javelina. The Lee 190 SWC for the .45 ACP works just as well and is the better killer on jack rabbits.

I'd suggest a lighter bullet which will stabilize better and Bullseye powder.

Larry Gibson.

[StarMetal]

Larry,

I found different. My load of the RCBS 255 gr over 9.0 grs of Unique in my old model Ruger Blackhawk, my S&W Model 25, my Winchester 94 Trapper, and my Marlin Cowboy....just love it and even at long distances. Funny how the cases seal in your revolver, especially since they have the barrel/cylinder gap, and they don't in your rifle.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

I found different. My load of the RCBS 255 gr over 9.0 grs of Unique in my old model Ruger Blackhawk, my S&W Model 25, my Winchester 94 Trapper, and my Marlin Cowboy....just love it and even at long distances. Funny how the cases seal in your revolver, especially since they have the barrel/cylinder gap, and they don't in your rifle.

Joe

Well 9 gr of Unique did a fairly good job of sealing the chamber in my Rossi also and gave good accuracy and it was running 1119 fps. Trouble is I always considered 8.5 gr with the 250-255 gr bullet to be the practical maximum load for SAAs. Your Ruger BH and S&W are ok with 9 gr. I have concerns about the Uberti. It appears the 8.5 gr load at 1000 fps in the Rossi was just borderline stabilized and was loosing it at 100 yards. Still can't figure why they stick with the slow twists in rifles but that's another subject. The cases were pretty sooty in the revolver also, just don't get any thing back in the face with it. Maybe I've got a hard lot of brass(?).

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Larry,

That Marlin I have has a 1/38 twist and my God it shoots good. I was really impressed with it when I first started shooting it. Right after I had just got it I went into the woods on my place. It was squirrel season, but I really was just taking a walk. I saw a squirrel on a branch about 65 yards so I took a crack at him. Darn if I didn't hit him..with that 255 gr SWC too. Didn't mess him up very bad either. Then after I picked him up I saw a cat...BOOM..got him too. On the way back to the house I found a box turtle....didn't shoot him...let him go. Had a really great first time out with that rifle.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

That Marlin I have has a 1/38 twist and my God it shoots good. I was really impressed with it when I first started shooting it. Right after I had just got it I went into the woods on my place. It was squirrel season, but I really was just taking a walk. I saw a squirrel on a branch about 65 yards so I took a crack at him. Darn if I didn't hit him..with that 255 gr SWC too. Didn't mess him up very bad either. Then after I picked him up I saw a cat...BOOM..got him too. On the way back to the house I found a box turtle....didn't shoot him...let him go. Had a really great first time out with that rifle.

Joe

Don't get me wrong, not saying they won't shoot well at all. I'm saying the slow twists have trouble with the heavy bullets at the low end speeds. As I said the Rossi is shooting just fine with the 200 gr Lee bullet. I also have a Lyman 452490 that casts a 240 gr GC SWC. I've got a load with it for the Rossi only that runs 1525 fps and shoots into 2 " at 100 yards when I use the reciever sight on the Rossi. It would be a safe load in a Blackhawk but it's definately not safe in the Uberti. Yup they can be shooters alright. Sounds like you had a great little hunt there. Sometimes it's ones like them that are best remembered. I especially liked the cat part.

Larry Gibson

[John Boy]

Felix is correct on the Ruger throat size.

Just a suggestion based on my RV modifications:
* ... Ream the throats out to 0.4545
* ... Chamfer the forcing cone
* ... Shoot 454's

As for the cases being sooty... that's indicative of a straight case. May want to use the Lee Factory Carbide Crimping Die and bite the bullet down with a good crimp. Won't eliminate the sooting, but will lessen it.

[felix]

Winchester got it right, finally. The twist, that is. 26 twist for both the 45 and 44 lever guns. Good for 300 grainers plus and any speed. There is somebody making a match ACP barrel with 24 twist. That will be my next barrel, if the current one wears out because of dirt, sand, etc. Likely in my son's lifetime, because this Kimber is being used at the riva' and not as a competive gun as was initially intended. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Larry,

To give you an idea of my RCBS 255 gr SWC weight, it often weighed over 260 grs with my softer alloys...and still shot well out of the Marlins slow twist. Maybe for the fun of it and a test I'll size down some of my 45-70 RCBS 405 grainers and shoot them out of the Marlin and see what they do.

Joe

[w30wcf]

Sky C.
In response to your observations: "I decided to check the fit of boolits into fired brass. The bullet will not drop into the mouth of a fired case. My impression is that this would speak against the chamber being excessively sloppy... ???
I also seated a bullet into a case and checked to see how much travel before it contacted the throat. The bullet has to travel about 0.190" beyond the crimp groove before it contacts the throat." I submit the following............

Early .45 Colt cartridges were loaded with .456/.457 diameter hollow based bullets. In fact, Winchester Cowboy ammunition uses .456" diameter bullets according to some rounds I dissected, and current Remington 250 gr. swaged hollow based bullets are .456" in diameter. The Winchester Cowboy ammunition is very accurate in my rifle and I have had some 2 - 2 1/2" 5 shot groups at 100 yards with it. You may want to pick up a box and give it a try.

Most current .45 Colt brass is pretty stout and will "spring back" a few thousands after being fired. If you have't already done so, try running your expander button back into a fired case to iron out the crimp and see if a bullet will fit.

In my .45 Colt Marlin Cowboy rifle, the jump to the rifling is about the same as yours, so unless something else is amiss, once you find the proper combination, the rifle should shoot aok. My rifle's groove diameter is .4525" and I shoot .454 to .457" diameter bullets in it. I have an older 457190 that drops bullets at .457" so I just lube them in a .457" die. Bullets at that diameter shoot just a little better than the .454's and besides, it's larger diameter helps seal the chamber better.

I have been neck sizing my .45 Colt brass for about 20 years now and that works very well also. I adjust my Lyman Carbide Sizing die to size the case to about 1/16" below where the base of the bullet will rest. The decaping pin is adjusted to deprime in the same operation.

What .45 Colt rifle do you have?

Good luck.
w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Larry,
Thank you for the additional information.

John Boy,
THank you for the added info. I did what you mentioned to my 2nd Ruger Blackhawk in additon to lapping out the bore constriction that 44 Man mentioned. Those mod's made it shoot much better.

Felix,
My Marlin has the earlier 1/38" twist. When I first got the rifle back in 1997, I did some testing with heavier bullets to see what it would and would not stabilize, knowing that velocity would also play a roll. I found that it would stabilize a 350 gr. cast bullet (457192), BUT .... only if the velocity was 1,350 f.p.s. and over. At 1,250 f.p.s. there was scuffing on the 100 yard target. One of my favorite .45 Colt bullets is the RCBS 300 gr. (315 grs. on w.w.). I size it to .457 with no gas check. 20 grs. of 4227 pushes it to 1,250 f.p.s. with very good accuracy. Drop 100 f.p.s. and scuffing appears.

Starmetal,
I tried the RCBS 405 in the 1/38" twist with a capacity load of 296 but they keyholed. A friend's '92 Winchester .45 Colt with the faster twist shot them very well.

w30wcf

[Bass Ackward]

Yep. Accuracy starts back in the chamber. If you can't load a large enough bullet to seal at the pressures the gun needs to operate, then your options for powder choices really deminishes. Then really soft lead rules as it will .... deform up and plug until the brass finally gets there. But as with the Colt, pure lead was what made it what it remains today.

If you can't seal the gas in the chamber, you have very little chance for accuracy with a straight sided case. Sometimes when I hear the big bullet arguments going I really wonder if accuracy is achieved because of improved alignment / bullet fit or just better ignition from a faster sealed case and delayed bullet travel down the bore.

Ignition, ignition, ignition.

[Bucks Owin]

Yep, anywhere from 8 to 10 grs Unique is a "classic" .45 Colt load and should work well in your's too amigo. 10 grs should get you 1,000+ fps even with the short barrel....(And is a potent load!)
Actually, the same amount works well in my .44 mag with a 250 gr Keith boolit....

FWIW,

Dennis

[Doughty]

Sky C,

The .45 Colt revolver/levergun combo seems to really be popular. I know it sure appealed to me. I have Vaqueros and a Marlin Cowboy. The problems I had when I first got them sound very much like the ones you are describing. After shooting and measuring and experimenting here's what I came up with.

The throats of my Vaquero's measured much like yours. I throated them all out to .453-. I determined that they and the Marlin would chamber rounds that had bullets up to .456 in diameter. After trying several different moulds that I had on hand I decided to try to design one that would be the optimum compromise for all. I settled on a bullet that would cast at .455 to .456 on the main bearing bands. One good sized lube groove. A nose band at .452 diameter. For length, I wanted as much nose as I could get and still cycle through the Marlin. The bullet I came up with is pictured below. It has an loaded overall length of 1.680. This allows it to cycle through the Marlin and come within .075 of the Vaquero's cylinder face. The nose band is .010 in length which lines up well in the revolvers and is juct clear of a jam fit in the Marlin. It has a meplat of .350 and out of WW it weighs 275 grains. I am currently shooting it in front of 13.5 grains of AA#7. Out of the revolvers it goes in the 850 to 900 range. In the rifles, in the high 1100s.

Perhaps no one bullet can be the perfect fit for all guns, but this has been a pretty good compromise in the several guns it has been tried in around here. If you would like to try some bullets, I would be happy to send you some to try or a mould if you rather make some out of your alloy.

doughty@blackfoot.net

[Cherokee]

Lots of suggestions and "works for me". I'll add what I have been using for several years: Marlin 24" CAS gun, three Ruger OM 45 Colt 7.5" gobble this load and are very accurate (ragged holes). RCBS 230CM (RNFP), cast out at 230 gr with WW+2%, sized .452 with CCI LP and 5.0 gr of Winchester Super Target, plus some roll crimp.

Prior to that I was using 7/231WW with the RCBS 255 Keith. It was great too but not a cowboy bullet.

[Sky C.]

Gentlemen-

Thanks again for all the excellent feedback and suggestions. I will start trying to work my way through these step at a time - easiest solutions first of course.

"Old Vic" - PM sent your way. Beautiful looking bullet (AND mould!)

Guns wise - I am trying to get a single load to shoot acceptably (accuracy & safely)in a Marlin cowboy lever gun, multiple Ruger Blackhawks, and modern clones (AWA Peacekeeper & a USFA). Not looking for CAS type load - want something that approximates the original loading but with smokeless. Something in the 800 - 900 FPS range in the revolvers with bullet of 250-270ish grs., this in deference to the original Colt design revolvers. I'm estimating out of the rifle I'll get another 250-300fps. When all is said & done - it may be that I end up with one load suitable for the Marlin/Ruger combo & may have to do something else with the clones. Along those lines - I've stuffed a few more cases with bullets in the 300gr & 315gr. range just to see what a different bullet will do. Also stuffed some exactly the same as last outing (LEE RNFP-PB) for a reference.

Something has been nagging at me. The rifle groups are just TOO BIG. I'm having a hard time believing that anything load wise (alone) could account for such a poor performance. As I've been turning it over in my head, I've come to wonder whether there was a problem with my bench technique. It occurs to me that these will be very slow loads in the rifle = long barrel time. I was shooting with my hand grasping the forend and that hand rested lightly against a sandbag. Could it be that my hand was rebounding inconsistantly off the sandbag and causing the shots to scatter??? I've seen something similar with a heavy recoiling .348 and changes in bench technique made a significant change in group sizes. I'm going to try some different things at the bench next time out to answer this question as well.


Thanks again for everyones suggestions. I'll post again after some more work.

Best regards-

Sky C.

[txbirdman]

Things I did to get acceptable accuracy out of my Vaquero have all been covered by first one/ then another in this thread.
(1) ream cylinder throats to .453
(2) size Lee 255 RFN to .454
(3) partial resize brass.
This improved accuracy to "good enough" for me since I wasn't prepared to work on possible barrel constriction.