LBT bullets 300fps faster than other types .

[243winxb]

This statement on Lead Bullets Technnology's web sight has me thinking. What do you think? True Or False

You can expect approximately 300 fps higher velocity with LBT gas checked revolver bullets, when lubed with LBT lubricant, and loads are developed to take advantage of the power potential built into our designs. This compared to jacketed of similar weight, and in most cases other cast designs of similar weight.

http://www.lbtmoulds.com/selectbullet.shtml Statement is under "WHICH WEIGHT IS BEST?" OK, lead bullets will go faster than jacketed, i will give them that. Lube with Moly will get a few fps more i would guess, have never used moly lubes. But 300 FPS more? My question is, have you personally done testing/comparison using a chronograph? Do you find this statement to be True or False Thank You. PS also posted here http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?board=114.0

[fredj338]

I'm crying BS on that. Bullets of equal wt. the longer the bearing surface the higher the pressure. So I see no way to get even 100fps higher vel. safely by going to a bullet w/ longer bearing surface as many of the LBT designs are. As far as moly goes, look at the loading data for moly jacketed bullets. The only way to get higher vel. is add more powder. The moly coating reduces friction but to get back the vel. you still have to raise pressures by adding more powder (Barnes manual).

[StarMetal]

Well I hate to burst your bubbles, but they may be true. Tell you why, it's the lube. Unknown to many of you I've done some intensive testing using soap as a lube. To be more specific Irish Spring soap. Nothing else. Well on two scoped rifles using the same loads that I used with 50/50 Alox/Beeswax I noticed my groups printing in a much different location. So I chronoed them and both were 100 fps faster then the 50/50 lubed loads.

To change nothing, but just the bullet....I wouldn't agree.

Joe

[BD]

Actually, I can offer some support for this claim based on both lube and boolit design.

Early on I noticed that I picked up about 80 fps when I switched from the Lee 230 grain tumble lube design using LLA to the single lube groove design of the same boolit sized and lubed using WFFL. Combine this with Veral's WFN designs which put significantly more boolit weight out in the nose, resulting in more case capacity, and you definitely have the potential for more velocity from a Veral designed cast boolit as compared with the same weight of JHP.

I don't know about 300 fps, but I think some increase is definitely possible with handgun boolits.

BD

[anachronism]

Verals design, with so much of the bullets weight forward of the case, leaves more room in the case for more powder. This is much like using a slightly longer case in the same caliber. Notice that he does not say this is possible with the same powder charge! All he is saying is that his bullet designs leave more room in the case with the same charges, so you can safely load more powder in the case, giving more velocity. This is especially true compared to designs like LEEs miserable little 158 gr .358 GC SWC, which have a very short nose, and almost a wadcutter length shank. I had a LEE 429 240 gr SWC that suffered from the same design flaw, the weight was good, but it was poorly proportioned. I would not be the least big surprised to find that his bullet lube gives slightly higher velocities than others too, but I have never tried to prove/disprove it myself.

[Firebird]

loads are developed to take advantage of the power potential

This is the key statement. As anachronsim said, LBT designed bullets move lead out of the case, leaving more room for powder. The short bearing surface in comparison to total length of LBT bullets, the low friction cast lead construction, and larger powder space inside the case all add up to higher velocities. Of course this doesn't come for free, WLN designs tend to start tumbling at around 75 yards from the muzzle as they don't have very stable ballistics - too similar to a wadcutter in shape to fly straight for very long. Veral's answer to those who have their bullets start to tumble too soon has always been to load to a higher velocity to help stabilize the bullet.

[44man]

This is the key statement. As anachronsim said, LBT designed bullets move lead out of the case, leaving more room for powder. The short bearing surface in comparison to total length of LBT bullets, the low friction cast lead construction, and larger powder space inside the case all add up to higher velocities. Of course this doesn't come for free, WLN designs tend to start tumbling at around 75 yards from the muzzle as they don't have very stable ballistics - too similar to a wadcutter in shape to fly straight for very long. Veral's answer to those who have their bullets start to tumble too soon has always been to load to a higher velocity to help stabilize the bullet.

I can dispute that all day, having shot too many LBT boolits to 500 meters and too many 1" or less groups at 100. Too many pop cans shot at 200 yards. In all the years I have been shooting WLN and WFN boolits, I have never seen a sideways hole at any distance. Watching them in a good spotting scope shows nothing but a smooth track to the target.
I don't know where this old wives tale comes from but there is no better boolit design.
They are faster with the same powder charge used for jacketed but it is not that much. No faster then any cast boolit.

[Leftoverdj]

100 fps ain't 300 fps. I'll believe 100 fps but not 300.

[runfiverun]

i think he may be talking in rifles.
that you could gain 300 fps [with accuracy] by using a better fitting boolit and lube.
if you can go say 1900, in your 308 with a normal production mold and hold a 1-1/2" goup he is saying you can go up to2200 with his design and lube with the same accuracy.
thats my take on it,remember veral is a mold maker and h/v advocate with cast.

[Bret4207]

Personally, I've always found Verals written thought process a bit difficult to follow. Add in his gift for salesmanship and you come up with statements like this. It may well be possible, but the explanation leaves something to be desired, eh?

[leadman]

I have chronographed the same boolits with LBT Blue Soft and othere lubes, mostly Red Angel.
Even though these were not veral's boolits I did gain up to 200fps. I would say the fps gain was more like 100fps. This was not with adding any more powder to the case.
My book that I had this info recorded in was peed on by a cat but I do remember the Lee 310gr. 44 I tested in my 444Marlin Contender barrel. His lube allowed me to hit 1,850 fps with no leading. Red Angel would give me problems over 1,700 fps.

[Larry Gibson]

I've recently run 3 seperate lube comparison tests with the .308W. Load remained he same in all with just the lubes being different. There was no velocity gain with the LBT Blue or Soft Blue. The tests were at 1800, 2300 and 2600 fps. I used a Lyman bullet (311466) so perhaps Veral's "magic" comes from his bullet deigns(?).

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

I've recently run 3 seperate lube comparison tests with the .308W. Load remained he same in all with just the lubes being different. There was no velocity gain with the LBT Blue or Soft Blue. The tests were at 1800, 2300 and 2600 fps. I used a Lyman bullet (311466) so perhaps Veral's "magic" comes from his bullet deigns(?).

Larry Gibson

Try Irish Spring Larry.....

Joe

[fredj338]

i think he may be talking in rifles.
that you could gain 300 fps [with accuracy] by using a better fitting boolit and lube.
if you can go say 1900, in your 308 with a normal production mold and hold a 1-1/2" goup he is saying you can go up to2200 with his design and lube with the same accuracy.
thats my take on it,remember veral is a mold maker and h/v advocate with cast.

The original statement says;

You can expect approximately 300 fps higher velocity with LBT gas checked revolver bullets, when lubed with LBT lubricant, and loads are developed to take advantage of the power potential built into our designs. This compared to jacketed of similar weight, and in most cases other cast designs of similar weight.

So I am still calling BS to 300fps increase over sim. wt. & lubed lead bullets. It's called marketing hype.

[Larry Gibson]

Joe

Guess I (we) didn't read the fine print as fred has corrected us. I still doubt the claim as fred des. I have a hard time believing just by changing to an LBT bullet of 250 gr and lubing with LBT that 22 gr of 2400 out of my 6.5" Ruger FTBH is suddenly going make 1700 fps instead of right at 1400 fps that most every other 240-250 gr SWC with any other lube is getting. Or that just by switching lubes and bullets to LBT designs that my .45 ACP target load is all of a sudden going to be shooting +P velocities.

As to the use of Irish Spring; When you shoot do you think my revolver would blow bubbles? Does it smell any better? I'm assuming cleanup is easier...with water? There's a lot of things that make good lubes but many or them have a serious draw back or two.

Larry Gibson

[MT Gianni]

His explanation of a similar statement in "Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets" is that since the bullet is seated so much further out of the case, you can load it heavier safely. YMMV, Gianni.

[Bass Ackward]

Veral is assuming that his reader understands how to work up a load in the absence of printed data. If you simply use a fixed powder charge and swap his bullet, then pressure will be lower and therefore velocity will be lower.

Several things affect this more than others obviously. First is larger bore diameters. The larger the diameter, the greater case capacity increases. Also the higher the pressure capability of the cartridge, the more benefit that will be seen. The slower the powder, the more the gain. Longer the barrel the higher the gain. The heavier the bullet per caliber, the higher the gain. But you must have the longer cylinder length to take advantage of it.

I have produced it with a 7 1/2" Redhawk in 44 Mag and you use 300 grainers. His WLN achieved 1550 fps fps for me over a Sierra jacketed design 1200 or so that limited OAL because of the crimp groove location. If you use a dual crimp groove Hornady and seat out, then the difference is closer. But the advantage can be there for those that have the cylinder length to take advantage of it. You can see 400 fps at the same pressure levels if it chambers in a 10 Contender. I did, but this isn't a revolver. Don't mean it will be accurate either, but that wasn't claimed in this statement.

If you are fooling with a 4" 38 Special or a 45 ACP, you're going to scream BS.

[anachronism]

Veral is assuming that his reader understands how to work up a load in the absence of printed data. If you simply use a fixed powder charge and swap his bullet, then pressure will be lower and therefore velocity will be lower.

Several things affect this more than others obviously. First is larger bore diameters. The larger the diameter, the greater case capacity increases. Also the higher the pressure capability of the cartridge, the more benefit that will be seen. The slower the powder, the more the gain. Longer the barrel the higher the gain. The heavier the bullet per caliber, the higher the gain. But you must have the longer cylinder length to take advantage of it.

Well said, Sir. I tried to explain earlier that there is less of the bullet shank in the case than many other designs, this is much like having a larger case to work loads up with. Sadly, I was unsuccessful in communicating this point.

[w30wcf]

44man,

Regarding accuracy with the LBT WFN at distance, I have had dismal results in the .45 Colt with the 250 LBT WFN compared to the 454190 bullet. It could very well be the slower twist (1/38) in my older Marlin .45 Colt Cowboy Ltd. rifle and the lower 1,250 f.p.s. velocity that I tried.

At 300 meters (steel javelina) the 454190 will stay in 8" or better if I do my part.
By comparison, the 250 LBT WFN impacts vary considerably.....over 4 feet apart

w30wcf

[dubber123]

I can buy his designs allowing higher velocities, due to increased case capacity. The lube giving 300 fps. higher? not likely. I did a test once with a 320 WFN Gc out of my 4" S&W. Same 1 hr period, same brass, pack of primers, same can of powder, same batch of boolits. Blue Soft Vs. Lyman Super Moly. The Lyman lube was faster by 50 fps. I wrote Veral, and to his credit, he responded, saying" Well that will teach me to use the word "always" when dealing with guns!"

It may be possible that it could be that much faster than a very poor lube, but there are many good lubes also.