Just When You Think You've Seen It All

[jrmartin1964]

Something like this comes along...

1.jpg 3.jpg

Lyman/Ideal No.429352, a 245-grain full wadcutter designed for .44 Russian by Minard Lefever Holman (1852-1925) of St. Louis, MO.
First appeared in Ideal Handbook No.22 (published in 1911) and continued through Lyman's Handbook No.41 (published in 1957).
It was illustrated in the first two editions of Lyman's cast bullet handbooks, but wasn't included in the load data pages.

Full wadcutters aren't generally on my radar, but a full wadcutter with a HOLLOW POINT? OK, that got my attention, and I had to have it.
I can't even imagine the logic behind what is generally regarded as a paper-puncher needing a hollow point, but yeah, why not?
And Lyman (as well its predecessors in the reloading tool and mould manufacturing business) would not hesitate to accommodate.

Jim

[Slugster]

Interesting mould. Could it be that the 'paper puncher' mould design might have the hollow point so as to lighten the front to make the boolit more weighted in the rear to enhance accuracy? Otherwise it appears to serve little or no purpose.

I like it though for it's an oddity.

[Polymath]

Federal_Hydra-Shok_9mm_-_Top_View.jpg
Made by Federal. It had a little post in the center to move the center of gravity forward a wee bit and "stabilize better."? They said it helped with a controlled expansion??? Unverified if it actually worked better of not. Maybe just another gimmick.
The Hydra-Shok is available in various calibers; 9x19mm Parabellum, 10mm Auto, .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire, .32 ACP, .380 ACP, .38 S&W Special, .327 Federal Magnum, .357 S&W Magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .45 GAP, and .44 Remington Magnum. It can also be found in 12 gauge shotgun slugs.[4]

[dale2242]

Maybe to add length without adding weight?

[justindad]

Can .44 Russian drive that boolit hard enough to get any expansion in soft tissue?

[sukivel]

Those older full wadcutter molds are hard to find and expensive when they show up. I have been on the lookout for them in various calibers…minus the HP of course. Cool to have just to play with though. I think I would make another pin so I could cast a regular fwc.


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[jdfoxinc]

That is a hollow base bullet. I have a similar HB .358 mold.

[Polymath]

That is a hollow base bullet. I have a similar HB .358 mold.

Not sure about that. The crimp groove is at the HP end and the sprue hole produces a flat bottom.

[knitepoet]

That is a hollow base bullet. I have a similar HB .358 mold.

Yep it's a HB wadcutter

Federal_Hydra-Shok_9mm_-_Top_View.jpg
Made by Federal. It had a little post in the center to move the center of gravity forward a wee bit and "stabilize better."? They said it helped with a controlled expansion??? Unverified if it actually worked better of not. Maybe just another gimmick.<snip>

A whole lot of "NOPE" in your post Polymath.

History lesson time, Hydrashoks were developed by Thomas J. Burczynski, who goes by Tom. Tom also designed the PMC Starfire Projectiles.
The idea of the post is for it to act like a "wedge" forcing fluids outward against the HP, increasing expansion. Before he sold the design to Federal, he tried going at it himself and sold them under "Man Stopper Products".
The original was a 142gr HBWC with the post. Back in the early 70s, when he first started selling them, the practice of loading HBWCs backwards was quite common in 38 snubbies. The Hydra-Shoks were intended to be an improvement

I still have a few boxes of the original MSP bullets, and gave Bazoo about half a box in a PIF a few months ago. IIRC, just because he'd never seen or heard of them, I included a few of the Nyclads as well





Much over 750fps into wet newsprint and the "skirt" expands to a washer about 1" in diameter and shear off and the base with the post continues on.
Once Federal started with the smaller, jacketed HP, and FBI testing protocols evolved, they figured out the federal version had a habit of the HP clogging with cloth, and the bullet acting like a FMJ.

S&W, when they made ammo back in the late 70s or early 80s, came out with Nyclad ammo. Basically the original Powder coated bullets, though I'm not sure what the coating actually is. Their solution for the snubbies was a load named "Chief Special SWC" A swaged 125gr SWC-HP with a DEEP HP. And yes, I have a couple of hundred of them also. I've loaded them in 38 and 9mm.
They expand nicely at the same 700-750fps as the Hydra-Shoks





Federal tried the HBWC principal with their 38spcl+p HST, but they ran into accuracy issues. The do perform well at close enough ranges to be able to hit your target
I can't find my pics of the expanded ones

[knitepoet]

MP still makes HBWC moulds
https://www.mp-molds.com/en/product/...v=0b3b97fa6688

https://www.mp-molds.com/en/product/...v=0b3b97fa6688

[Polymath]

Hey, thanks for the update.

[knitepoet]

[Bigslug]

No guys. . .that's a hollow POINT. Check the lube groove location and crimp groove direction. Also, it's got a clear step down making the nose a slightly narrower diameter than the base.

Looks to be a pretty small cavity, so probably either for balance or to serve as a gradually expanding "cup point".

Cool mold! Good find!

[forrest]

That "Ideal" mold is from the late 1950's/early 1960's. It has the vent lines in it. It's a special order hp mold, you used to be able to order directly from lyman and get any mold they currently sold in a hp version. You could order 41/44/45cal molds with a .140" hp pin or the 44/45cal with larger .156" hp pin. The picture the op posted has the correct (#1) stamped into the mold and the hp pin along with the hp pin's taper starting just after the top of the bullets nose.

What you have is a lyman type III wc with a standard hp pin.

Hollow bases molds have a lot larger hb pin. A late 1950's ideal mold that is a nib 358431 hb swc that has a #1 stamped in the hb pin and mold along with vent lines. A hollow base mold is a nose pour mold.
[IMG][/IMG]

I actually have 2 of the 358431 hb swc molds. I don't use the nib mold and cast with an older non vent line mold that someone cut their own vent lines in.
[IMG][/IMG]

The type III wc the op's mold casts in the wc on the bottom right.


Hollow pointing molds and making hp pins isn't that hard to do. An ideal & lyman molds both with vent lines (358156). I enlarged the hp pin hole the mold on the right (lyman mold) and made a larger hp pin and did head-to-head testing with the standard .125" hp pins they sent with the 35cal molds VS a larger .156" pin they sent with the 44/45cal molds.
[IMG][/IMG]

Anyway, the op has an excellent example of a special-order mold that is actually on the rare side being that wasn't a high sale/high volume bullet design to begin with.

[knitepoet]

I stand corrected

[20:1]

Forrest nailed it, and even showed the pics that I was thinking of. Ideal/Lyman molds could be ordered direct from the factory in those days, and hollowpointing was a factory option.

We don't have a "like" button, so I posted this instead.

[sukivel]

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[deltaenterprizes]

That is a hollow base bullet. I have a similar HB .358 mold.

My thoughts too!