223 + Cast, is it worth it?

[archeryrob]

Came back to view the thread I posted under the same title and it looked gone. Post count was not working them maybe it got deleted?

Anyways, I got the Lee mold and cases will be here soon. Saw the one guys post of using 3031 and its a fast load. What alloy do y'all use? How hard does it need to be? My WW is about 11, 13 if quenched after powder coat and 16 if I do the Elvis Ammo 250 powder coat bake. DO I need harder?

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I load a 55gn RCBS in my Browning A-Bolt (1:12" rot) Gives good accuracy regularly 2 MOA.

[dverna]

Too lazy to re-post my initial post. Short story.

It is a waste of time. Do a search for Hornady bulk 55 gr SP. They cost about $12/100 and shoot MOA at over 3000 fps. Cost of cast bullets with GC comes to $6/100, shoot like crap and will never get to that speed. Bear in mind most .223/5.56 barrels have a fast twist so getting decent velocity is near impossible.

If you want to inspect and weight sort to save $6/100 you must love casting bullets. You will spend $125 for a mold and waste primers and powder to find a mediocre load. To break even, you will need to shoot over 2000 bullets and spend hours culling, casting. lubing, and sizing.

Go for it if you love a challenge. NOTE, BAW has a 1:12 rate of twist...that matters.

[forrest]

Another caster that never cast anything for the 22cal's (22lr/22mag/223's). I owned several different 223/556's and they had 1 in 7's/ 1 in 9's/ 1 in 12 twists. Couple that with the firearms being gas guns, bolt actions, break open single shots.

Ended up swaging my own bullets for the 223's/556's. Free jackets from 22lr cases, free lead cores from berm lead. 20,000+ swaged jacketed bullets later and still going strong.
[IMG][/IMG]

These home swaged bullets can be loaded from mild to wild and are surprisingly accurate considering I mainly use them for blammo ammo in the ar's.

[Delkal]

Looks like my old post was purged so I will try again. No it is not worth it. Why do you want to go to all that aggravation to load a 223 to 22 Mag velocities with worse accuracy? You can buy pulled 223 bullets at American Reloading for $50/ thousand vs how much for just the gas checks?

[Dusty Bannister]

While many do not find shooting cast in the 223 or the AR platform worthwhile, but there are a few that do. Special purpose uses. A friend is working with youth shooters and beginning training with a single shot 22 RF to teach safety, and awareness with the smaller rifle has it's place in the training. From there, they would usually transition to the AR-15 carbine which is a bit heavy for small stature or young shooters. The Semi auto feature of the AR tended to be a problem with youngsters tending to hurry shots and not focus on position, and other basic points. This part of the training and eventual competition usually benefited a slight powder reduction to reduce the recoil and noise level which is sometimes an issue with youth. There still had to be sufficient pressure to fully cycle the arm.

Now he has a manually cycled AR platform that is magazine fed, but requires hand cycling by pulling and releasing the charging handle. This allows for a further reduction in powder/noise/recoil and benefits the youngster. There is no real need for a jacketed bullet as the cast bullet, sized and powder coated or tumble lubed will be loaded without the gas check and have suitable accuracy at 50 yards for training purposes. It is easy to ID the jacketed bullet cartridges loaded for normal practice and competition from the cast bullet training rounds. It will also take on additional duties for pest control of smaller critters.

[gwpercle]

With a bolt action rifle I would also explore down-loading that 223 to lower levels to take the place of 22 LR and 22 Magnum when there is another "shortage" ... or to avoid the cost of 22 Magnum ammo !
That 55 gr. boolit over :

5.5 grs. - 700X @ 1711 fps.
5.6 grs. - Red Dot @ 1795 fps.
6.8 grs. - Unique @ 1900 fps.

All of these are "starting" loads as shown in RCBS #1 and Lyman #4 manuals . Those 11 bhn coated boolits should work just fine with these reduced loads .

Think About It

Gary

[TribunusSanGeorgii]

Looks like my old post was purged so I will try again. No it is not worth it. Why do you want to go to all that aggravation to load a 223 to 22 Mag velocities with worse accuracy? You can buy pulled 223 bullets at American Reloading for $50/ thousand vs how much for just the gas checks?

While many do not find shooting cast in the 223 or the AR platform worthwhile, but there are a few that do. Special purpose uses. A friend is working with youth shooters and beginning training with a single shot 22 RF to teach safety, and awareness with the smaller rifle has it's place in the training. From there, they would usually transition to the AR-15 carbine which is a bit heavy for small stature or young shooters. The Semi auto feature of the AR tended to be a problem with youngsters tending to hurry shots and not focus on position, and other basic points. This part of the training and eventual competition usually benefited a slight powder reduction to reduce the recoil and noise level which is sometimes an issue with youth. There still had to be sufficient pressure to fully cycle the arm.

Now he has a manually cycled AR platform that is magazine fed, but requires hand cycling by pulling and releasing the charging handle. This allows for a further reduction in powder/noise/recoil and benefits the youngster. There is no real need for a jacketed bullet as the cast bullet, sized and powder coated or tumble lubed will be loaded without the gas check and have suitable accuracy at 50 yards for training purposes. It is easy to ID the jacketed bullet cartridges loaded for normal practice and competition from the cast bullet training rounds. It will also take on additional duties for pest control of smaller critters.

This and this. I've acquired thousands of fmjs from American Reloading for less than the cost of gas checks.

Nevertheless, I'm not getting rid of my mold as I could see using cast boolits with pistol powder loads for either a bolt action or for turning an AR into a straight pull.

[rbuck351]

Different strokes for different folks. I don't have an AR and don't want one so my cast loading in 223 is for my early Rem700V 1/12 twist. I have several molds in 22cal, my favorite is a 38gr. I have several hundred lbs of ww lead that I got for around 20 cents a lb and make my own gc from aluminium sheeting. I don't know the cost of them but it might be as high as 10 for a penny with my home made gc maker. I don't know the exact cost of my boolet but suspect it to be less than 1 cent each.
I use H116 for powder as I was given 24lbs a few years back. Primers were bought years ago and I have never paid more than 2 1/2 cents each. My load shoots about 1 1/2" at 100 yds. I haven't checked fps but suspect it to be 2200/2400 fps. I use this in place of a 22 mag that I don't have.
So, maybe 4 to 5 cents per loaded round vs 25/30 each for 22mag. I don't consider my time as I am retired so my income remains the same whether I load, sleep, work in the yard or on one of the cars. Makes perfect sense to me to cast for 223.

[gwpercle]

I don't shoot no stinkin J-word projectiles ...



Cast Boolits are always worth it !

Gary

[oldblinddog]

It is very easy to turn a .22 cf into a “22LR” and well worth the effort.

[MT Gianni]

I have seen evidence of someone shooting cast in 223 at close to 3000 fps, He used the RCBS 55 mold and an allow that was harder than 35 bhn. Firearm was a ss contender. Alloy was from a babbit bearing that when he asked the giver to look into it, he was told he would have to buy 100,000 lbs and even then it might be cost prohibited to make.

I believe him and trust that he did it but he will never post here again after doubters ran him off with disparaging comments. I have no problems shooting 22 hornet to 2400 fps with cast and think with the right alloy it can be done with 223. If you are into slow twist single shots it might be worth pursuing. If you are into shooting AR's as fast as they can cycle it isn't going to work for you.

If loading 32 long and 38 specials are a high school subject then high velocity small bores are a masters course. If you shoot enough cast you realize that you don't need high speeds. The real beauty of this sport, as a long dead companion shooter once said is "We don't need the bullet to go all the way through the backer, just through the target paper."

[jsizemore]

It doesn't hurt to have more options when the next shortage occurs. It might even make your head hurt.

[Doughty]

Delkal, could you post a link to the American Reloading offering you referenced. I can't seem to find it. Thanks.

[gwpercle]

It doesn't hurt to have more options when the next shortage occurs. It might even make your head hurt.

Like Like Like !!!

Hitting my like button ... 3X

Gary
Casting Boolits is my way of life

[dg31872]

Ed Harris has an excellent article in his web page about shooting cast in his AR. Excellent read, lots of information, and may help you decide what works best for you. Back Creek Diary

[Larry Gibson]

I'm another that no longer loads cast bullets in the 223/5.56 cartridge for use in an AR or any other gas gun. While i did achieve "blasting accuracy" of 4 - 5 moa out to 300 yards using my 12" twist AR I just don't want to jump through the hoops needed for that. The cast bullets were Lyman 225438s cast of a very hard alloy with babbit in it, heat treated, PC'd and lubed with Javelina. they were loaded over H335 and to 2700 fps. Almost all milsurp 55 gr FMJs I've iused [and that's a lot of them] produce at least half as good if not better accuracy at 3100 +/- fps without all the hassle. My cast bullet "option" for the next "shortage" will be a 30 caliber one in 30 Carbine or 7.62 NATO.

That being said, I do shoot a lot of cast bullets, mostly 225415s, out of my single shot and bolt guns in 22 Hornet and 223. Those have 12, 14 or 16" twist barrels. I killed a lot of ground squirrels and grouse for the pot with those cartridges using sub-sonic and sonic cast bullet loads.

The OP has a 7" twist AR and desires 3000 fps. Were it really feasible we all, I in particular, would be doing it. So to answer the OP's title question; "is it worth it"? To me no it's not with an AR or any other gas gun. Will it be to him? I wish him good luck with that.

[Recycled bullet]

There's a lot of good shooting and safe hand loading experiments that can be handled by cast lead bullets at 950-2,200ish feet per second. If there's anything you want to know just ask.


My personal recommendation is to buy and use the jacketed bullets if you want to shoot bullets at 3,000ish ft per second.

Sometimes when you powder coat the cast lead bullets the noses become too fat and won't fit in the throat of the barrel anymore. Make some dummy cartridges with the powder coated bullets to test overall length fitment and check that they feed without problems from the magazine into the chamber and then can freely plunk into and fall out of the chamber under its own weight without oversized nose getting stuck in the throat.

Subsonic loads with a single shot gun are especially delightful.
Have you seen the 300 Blackout single shot pistols?

[TribunusSanGeorgii]

Delkal, could you post a link to the American Reloading offering you referenced. I can't seem to find it. Thanks.

http://https://americanreloading.com/collections/rifle-projectiles

If you are unfamiliar with American Reloading you have to add a product to your cart to see the discounted price (and it is almost always discounted to various degrees).

Several options for .224 bullets under $50/k currently.

[TribunusSanGeorgii]

Ed Harris has an excellent article in his web page about shooting cast in his AR. Excellent read, lots of information, and may help you decide what works best for you. Back Creek Diary

http://https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/Cast%20In%20an%20AR.htm