9mm bullets going sideways through the target!

[stronics]

I bought a new Lee mold, a 9 mm 124 gr. tumble lube 6 cavity. Loaded up 50 known good loads of 4.1 grs. Universal. Tried them out yesterday at 30 ft. with two pistols a P320 and a Springfield XD elite. Three out of five land sideways, a perfect profile of the bullet.
Any thoughts on what could be going on? Cast of 1-16 lead, tumble lubed with Lee's alox then sized .356 with a Lee sizer, them tumble lubed again. Very light coating on the bullet. Taper crimped, OAL to just completely chamber and touch the rifling. I've been loading since 1957 and have never had this happen with a center fire pistol.
Thanks for any thoughts,
David

[popper]

Alloy is way too soft. You need about 3% Sb and probably WD for that load.

[BK7saum]

Way too soft. The brass case (9mm brass is really hard/thick at the neck compared to most other calibers) is sizing your SOFT bullet down several thousandths when seated.
So you are shooting an undersized bullet down the barrel and it is not reliably engaging the rifling. It is stripping on the rifling and not being stabilized.

You need a harder alloy, an expander (m-type preferred) that is only a thousandth or less than bullet diameter and if you are using one, probably stop using the Lee FCD (if you need oversized bullets due to a larger bore/groove diameter).

[Grayone]

Alloy is way too soft. You need about 3% Sb and probably WD for that load.

In addition
to the above I would suggest sizing up to 357-358 as all my nines like this sizing.

[BK7saum]

If you do not believe alloy is too soft, seat a boolit and the pull it with a kinetic puller and measure the diameter. Both the harder alloy and an m-type expander close to bullet diameter will help mitigate the brass sizing down the bullet issue.

I use range scrap (normally 10-11 bhn, water dropped to a harder bhn) then powder coat and size to desired diameter.

I use a taper crimp die and only size enough to remove the flare and get a mild crimp. Over crimping can also size your bullets in side the case and make them undersized.

[walnut1704]

I've never experienced that but I sure have had trouble with cast bullets in the 9mm. It worked eventually.

After a lot of trial and error I came to the following conclusions:

1. The harder the alloy the better. But after a point there is little gain. Try some hardball then work your way down.
2. The bigger the bullet the better. Sizing to .358 sometimes won't work, but .357 usually does.
3. The longer the bearing surface of the bullet, the better. I use the Lee 147gr TC.
4. I've never got a round nose to shoot well, but I didn't spend a lot of time trying as they are my least favorite design. In general truncated cones (TC) and bullets with a defined edge, like a SWC, will shoot well but I can't really say that one couldn't get a RN to work.

Try 1 & 2 first before you buy a new mold.

[forrest]

Typically bullets that tumble are undersized.

I had the same mold and ended up selling it. That bullet just didn't want to do anything accuracy wise. Along with the design being extremely touchy to changes in pressure/loads. Doing ladder tests with it was a real eye opener. I was sizing them to .358" and bumping up the alloy to 13/14bhn and still had issues.

I took the $$$ I got from selling the lee mold and ended up buying a 4-cavity MP 357-125 mold. Still sized them to .358" simply because I would have the ability to use them in the 9mm/38spl/357mag. Went back to my typical 8/9bhn alloy to cast the mp-125's.
[IMG][/IMG]

Had 3 different 9mm's I was using that mp bullet in with excellent results. I've been thinning the herd and I'm down to 1 9mm, a Springfield Armory range officer chambered 1911 in 9mm. That ro with those mp-125's cast with 8/9bhn sized to .358" and pc'd.
[IMG][/IMG]

SA stamped NM on those range officer 1911's, don't know about all that. But I load those MP-125's with 5.0gr of ww wst ,1.130" oal that does +/- 1050fps with a +/- 25,000psi load.
[IMG][/IMG]

Myself, I'm glad I ditched that lee mold for the MP 357-125 mold. Night and day performance wise along with the ability to cast 130gr fn's or 125gr hps (penta.round).

[stronics]

I guess you guys are right. I use the same alloy for 357, 44 and 45 and they all shoot great. I will try what is suggested. Thanks for the help.
David

[GONRA]

GONRA's been there, done that..... Pay attentiom to Greyone & BK7saum.

[gwpercle]

I guess you guys are right. I use the same alloy for 357, 44 and 45 and they all shoot great. I will try what is suggested. Thanks for the help.
David

I have had problems with the Lee 6 cavity - tumble lube design and 9mm luger ... a lot of trouble !
they tend to drop on the small size and may get sized down when seating in the 9mm tapered case ... it was giving me Fits !
I fixed it by going to a standard lube groove mould , .358" , 124 gr. TC with a gas check and sizing them to .357" ... the gas check helped with getting the boolit seated without squeezing it down too much .
Keep trying different things and do use a case neck expander ...
the little stinker almost beat me down but a NOE mould #358-124-TC-GC and a NOE 9mm case neck expander (it is like a Lyman M-die expander) and supply of gas checks got all the bugs worked out . They size easily to .358" or .357"... my alloy is 50-50 COWW and soft lead... about 9.5 - 10 bhn air cooled , rather soft ... but this combination works Great in a\all 4 9mm handguns I have tested them in .
Keep trying different things ... Try powder coating that Lee boolit and see if that doesn't get it fatter and expand the case (lyman M-die style)...
I gave up loading Boolits in the 9mm 2-3 times ... it made me say curse words ... and I don't cuss ... but just keep at it till you beat it !
The 9mm Luger is a Little Stinker ... and I don't care for it very much at all !
Good Luck
Gary

[SiliconeSword]

I had this issue with 9mm too, with the Lee 120 and 147 TC bullets.
I fixed it by lapping out my sizing die with diamond paste so a FC/Blazer/Speer/Hornady case would have an ID of .356 after sizing, sizing my boolits .358, and also sorting out all S&B and PPU brass for jacketed loads only. I also went to a taper crimp to reduce the flare, not remove but just make it so the neck is about .381 and feels slightly belled.

I also quit using those molds and instead run an MP .357-135? that has a more FMJ profile and no lube grooves. This lets me shoot dead soft range scrap that'd been powder coated as accurately or slightly better than FMJs or some JHPs from my pistols and AR9. I didn't like how deeply the boolits had to be seated as it really limited my power and powder choices. The reduced volumes/spiked pressures I think also didn't help leading/tumbling for me, but the grooveless mold fixes all that and works great.

[GhostHawk]

Gtayone nailed it imo

[Littlewolf]

I use the Lee 6cav 124gr 2R lube groove sized .358 cast from wheel weight and powder coated and getting no sideways holes out of my SCCY CPX2 even as far as 100yrds and keeping them inside an 8" circle. crimp die used is Dillon SDB set just enough to prevent recoil bullet depth changes, powder through expander Dillon SDB w .358" dia.

[MT Gianni]

Almost every time I read of tumbling bullets it is a 9mm with the Lee 124 tl tc mold. The two cavity is a little light for a bank sinker but the 6 cavity will hold a set line in the mud. Tumble lube can work but something is wrong with that molds design, IME.

[Hick]

I have no trouble with the Lee 124 TL bullet-- shoots great in my 9mm. BUT-- I size to 0.356 and then powder coat to about 0.358. My alloy is about BHN 10

[Shiloh]

I saw that with a Walther P-38 do that. Sized at .356.
.357 was a bit better.

Shiloh

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I have that mold. Sized to .358 and differing hardness mine all tumble in Sig P320, Sig 365, and KelTek PF9.

[Plate plinker]

agree do not size down so much

[cupajoe]

I shoot the Lee 124 RN TL bullet water dropped and sized to .357. I have shot it powder coated and also naked sized and lubed over 4.0 grains Titegroup. I shamelessly stole the load from a fellow on youtube. Great results in all pistols it was shot in. I recently did a test with several factory loads including FMJ bullets and boutique SD loads at 30 yards from a Ransom Rest the only loads to shoot better were the expensive SD loads and it gave them a run for the money.

[brassrat]

i do not trust a Lee sizer to be where I paid for it to be. Although usually good