600 yd fail

[Good Cheer]

Shooting paper patched in a 16" twist .41 groove diameter muzzleloader so yeah, watching with interest.

[country gent]

Reread your post and thinking on it some your load at 1450 may be going subsonic before the target causing a disturbance during the transition from super to subsonic. Maybe try a load starting in the 1150-1200fps range, To avoid the transition.

[Gunlaker]

Something is likely happening to unbalance that bullet before it gets out of the barrel. I've shot lots of 400gr money bullets out of a 1:16 twist 40-65 at 600 and none were unstable. I haven't shot PP in 40-65, but lots of other cartridges.

I would try what Don suggested, wipe more. Two wets is the absolute minimum and usually too little in my opinion, when shooting paper patch. One way of knowing is to look at the paper shreds and see if they look clean. If they are not clean then that's indicating the bore is not completely clean and you are pushing fouling with the bullet, possibly damaging it in the process. You can also see this by looking at the bullet marks on a white paper target. If there are black smudges on the bullet holes you need to wipe more.

Also what Chill said. Pay very careful attention to what the bullet holes look like. The actual hole in the paper should be dead center in the lead "smudge" left by the bullet as it goes through the paper at close ranges like 200yds. If it's off enter there it won't get better later.

Chris.

[Keith]

Reread your post and thinking on it some your load at 1450 may be going subsonic before the target causing a disturbance during the transition from super to subsonic. Maybe try a load starting in the 1150-1200fps range, To avoid the transition.

I was wondering if it was the Transition Zone but going 1450 I would have thought it would be back further say 900. Only doing 1200 may not get me back to 1000.

[Keith]

Something is likely happening to unbalance that bullet before it gets out of the barrel. I've shot lots of 400gr money bullets out of a 1:16 twist 40-65 at 600 and none were unstable. I haven't shot PP in 40-65, but lots of other cartridges.

I would try what Don suggested, wipe more. Two wets is the absolute minimum and usually too little in my opinion, when shooting paper patch. One way of knowing is to look at the paper shreds and see if they look clean. If they are not clean then that's indicating the bore is not completely clean and you are pushing fouling with the bullet, possibly damaging it in the process. You can also see this by looking at the bullet marks on a white paper target. If there are black smudges on the bullet holes you need to wipe more.

Also what Chill said. Pay very careful attention to what the bullet holes look like. The actual hole in the paper should be dead center in the lead "smudge" left by the bullet as it goes through the paper at close ranges like 200yds. If it's off enter there it won't get better later.

Chris.

I will do that. I have a dozen of the BACO Bore Wipes so may try them too. Just loaded 10 with 82 grains of 3F compressed a bit deeper then the Poly and a felt. Also 10 with cork instead of felt. I need someone to come up with me and spot so wont be till next week I can try them. Will cast some more boolits tomorrow as nearly out.

[Gunlaker]

I have had good luck with the back bore wipers and PP bullets but I wipe twice with them. One wet felt on the wiper pushed by a dry 3" diameter patch, then a second wiper with a single wet felt pushed by another dry patch. That's about as good a system as I've been able to come up with for PP. I think I've also read that Kenny W. hit upon the same solution, but maybe I'm mis-remembering.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

I use one wet felt on the wiper pushed ahead of a 2 inch flannel patch in the 40 calibers

[Lead pot]

I don't think that it's a fouling control with his wiping routine he is using. I looked up the bullet he is using and the ogive radius is longer than the shank and this will increase the chances for bullet yaw with the slight misalignment with the bore or wind velocity. I been through this using a high BC projectile with black powder velocity.
If a load in a rifle like the photo below can hold a 2 MOA group except for the three that wandered out at 200 yards with out fouling control except for an occasional blow in the breach when chambering a round gets a little tight everything is working properly. Yes, fouling control is a must if you want the most accuracy from the BPCR rifle. I'm not disputing that
100 rounds were shot fitting the new formed cases for this .44-100 rifle.
Kurt
IMG_1242_zps765223af.jpeg

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Sometimes, changing to 'stronger' primer helps reduce ES.

[45-110]

From Kurt:
"ogive radius is longer than the shank" Several formulas available to determine overall bullet length for a given twist, is there a preferred ratio for the various nose profiles to shank length? I am always interested in what works well at long range. Stability is everything at distance.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Reread your post and thinking on it some your load at 1450 may be going subsonic before the target causing a disturbance during the transition from super to subsonic. Maybe try a load starting in the 1150-1200fps range, To avoid the transition.

I believe you have some of your terminology backwards. Most BP cartridges drop from super sonic in the first 300 yards, they spend the majority of their time in flight at what is called the transonic range, somewhere between 800 and 900 yards they drop from transonic speed, to subsonic speed, right around 900 yards. I have spent considerable time testing with a lab Radar unit, chronograph and taking a muzzle velocity and a 50 yard velocity plug them into an applied ballistics program to calculate BC. You can plug that data into their ballistic program and get a pretty accurate idea of at what distance your bullet drops out of the transonic speed to subsonic speed. I have a long thread on the Shiloh forum going into this in detail. It’s titled Do We Need a 900 yard load?

Kenny Wasserburger

[Sgt H]

The transonic range is from mach .8 to mach 1.2 or roughly 900fps to 1350fps. Even when the boolit drops to subsonic speed there is still airflow around it that is supersonic. I can only imagine that this could cause turbulence and issues with stability. No doubt some boolit profiles handle this much better than others. Also based on computer generated models the effective BC of the boolit lowers quite drastically once it drops below mach .8.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I know that Brian Litz has stated a flat base bullet works best for handling the transonic range better than anything else. Some where between 800 and 925 yards is the phase inception point where our bullet drops out of transonic to subsonic speed, as pointed out around .8 Mach. In certain conditions it can wreck havoc at the 900 yard target.

KW

[Keith]

When I have a problem with bullets or loads I go to the sawdust trap box or the fresh snow if I have it. I prefer the fresh dry snow over the sawdust, no damage or setback using it. I have to see what is going on , I don't like to guess
Here are things that will cause instability shooting lead bullets, especially the PP bullet not patched to the proper diameter. The first two I was having a problem getting oblong holes through the paper. The bullets were patched .002 under bore diameter and the alloy was 1/16 tin/lead and slip fit in the case. The other side of those three bullets the land cuts ran farther up on the ogive and the bases uncut. They had runout fitting loose in the troth. Not every shot showed this out of 30 rounds fired but it happened with two and that is two too many
The third photo I was getting ready for a lever match with my .30-30 and the alloy was #2 hardness and they were pushed to fast around 2300 fps and they cleared the muzzle longer then unfired. So you can push a lead bullet too hard also.

Kurt

LOL, I understand that brain fog I call it I got 5 years on you


Attachment 346019Attachment 346020Attachment 346021

Well Kurt I am embarresed to say it was brain fog.
I took a spotter up with me yesterday to watch my shots through the scope.
He picked up straight away that they were low and bouncing up into the target, hence hitting sideways. I have seen that before with other shooters but did not realise it happened to me. Thought I should tell you all anyway.
It may be something to do with changing from my Kelley off set sight to a DZ scope and getting the sight settings mixed up. I am finding the scope easier at the 600 though.
One thing I tried due to suggestions from here was a different wad stack. From a nearly full case at 84.5 grns I went back to 82 grns and turned my compression die down one turn. This made room for a cork or felt wad on top of the poly. My felt was a bit fluffy and it was hard to keep the boolit in the mouth. But from the few I fired the load with the cork under seemed to group a bit better. I will try again for a repeat but back at 400 yds.I think 6 is a bit far for load development.
Thanks for all the suggestions.

Red face. Keith

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Well Kurt I am embarresed to say it was brain fog.
I took a spotter up with me yesterday to watch my shots through the scope.
He picked up straight away that they were low and bouncing up into the target, hence hitting sideways. I have seen that before with other shooters but did not realise it happened to me. Thought I should tell you all anyway.
It may be something to do with changing from my Kelley off set sight to a DZ scope and getting the sight settings mixed up. I am finding the scope easier at the 600 though.
One thing I tried due to suggestions from here was a different wad stack. From a nearly full case at 84.5 grns I went back to 82 grns and turned my compression die down one turn. This made room for a cork or felt wad on top of the poly. My felt was a bit fluffy and it was hard to keep the boolit in the mouth. But from the few I fired the load with the cork under seemed to group a bit better. I will try again for a repeat but back at 400 yds.I think 6 is a bit far for load development.
Thanks for all the suggestions.

Red face. Keith

It happens, still something for all of us to keep in the back of the gray mater vault

Glad you got it sorted out,

KW