Paper patch length

[barkerwc4362]

I am pondering the length of bullet parallel area that I need to patch. I have patched 50 of the Buffalo Arms .396" 415 grain "Money" flat base bullets (JIM396415M) cast in 1/20 alloy. I started the patch about a third of the way down the nose of the bullet at where by "eye ball" it looks like the parallel area of the bullet starts. I am using 9 lb Eaton's Corrasable onion skin paper. The patch is two wraps of this paper. Patched bullet diameter is about .402 and I am sizing the patched bullet through a .401 Lee push through die. My rifle is Shiloh 1874 in 40-70 Sharps Straight 2 1/2". The patched bullet is larger than bore diameter. When I seat the bullet to engage the lands OAL is 3.350". This OAL is less than the OAL for the Buffalo Arms .410" 420 grain "Money" bullet, 1st two bands reduced diameter (JIM410420M4) seated to just touch the lands.

I am not new to paper patching. I paper patch the Lyman 457122, 330 grain hollow point, Gould bullet for my Browning 1886 and my H&R Trapdoor Officer Model. But they are smokeless only. I have patched many hundreds of that bullet. I generally size that bullet down to .454" before patching the area from just in front of the first driving band back with two wraps of 9lb onion skin. The bullets are then loaded just like regular cast bullets. But this is different.

Do I need to move the start of the patched area back more from the nose so that the bullet will sit farther into the throat? If I start the patch farther down the parallel portion of the bullet will it make a difference in stability? Or, is this one of those I will just have to try it and see? Anyone else here shoot this bullet?

[country gent]

For length of patch cut a length of paper as wide as you need and leave it full length. make 3-4 wraps around the bullet, and make a nick with a razor blade. Each ick when laid flat is one wrap decide on your angle and cut at 2 nicks for 2 wraps. from this I subtract a 1/32". This allows for paper stretch and over wrap. There will be a radius where the outer wrap goes over the inner, staying short of tis keeps patch more even.

When the patch is right rubber cement it to a piece of light metal or plastic and use it to cut your template.

Width will be determined by your bullet and how you wrap tail or tailless.

I wrap bore riders so the patch fits in the bore and only seat an 1/8"or so into the case. I also wrap tailless simply folding the paper over and under with a tight fold into the cupped base.

[JosieGun]

CC's method of figuring paper patch width is spot on.

I use a long dry paper wrap to slightly above the slick's ogive then twist a tight tail that's cut dead flush to the slick's base, seated .1" to .11" into the case mouth, on top of compressed black powder (Swiss 1-1/2) and .060" LDPE wad.

[barkerwc4362]

This bullet with two wraps of 9 lb onion paper is too large in diameter to be a bore rider. I know the routine on how to create a patch of the proper length to get just under two wraps. The patches I am using for this bullet show just a faint hint of being about 1/16" or less shy of being two thicknesses. The problem is the bullet should probably be between .391" to .393" in as cast diameter to be a bore rider not .396". So, minus any advice I will start the patch first about 1/16" farther back from the nose and try that for 20. Then may try 1/8" farther back from the nose for another 20. Then shoot them and see how they do. I was hoping someone here would have encountered this before and could give some advice. Heck I may try casting some from 1/30 alloy instead of 1/20 and see how much that will reduce the as cast diameter. I know it may be only 0.001' or 0.002" but I can only try.

[HWooldridge]

I once tried to move the patch a bit further back for a short chamber but they simply stripped off with every shot. I think you have to get the basic diameter right then wrap over the ogive origin.

It might work in your gun but my experience was not successful.

[JosieGun]

The formula for a good bore rider is a combination of bore and slick diameters, and paper patch thickness.

For me, the better final goal is a PPB that fits well into the bore with the paper touching the rifling with not a tight fit.

It usually do take some 'spirimenting to get it all properly together.

[country gent]

How thick is the eatons paper? Paper thickness can be varied to change bullets dia. Wrapping with the patch damp will allow the paper to stretch more and get thinner also.
Ideally you want to see the outer wrap come off as confetti and the inner wrap /fold under intact with rifling engravings showing.
Some wrap to throat dia and seat deeper into the case.
The early original Paper Patched chambers were slightly smaller with a sharp leade right off the case mouth. When grease groove came along many of these rifle were modified as they wouldnt chamber ammo loaded with grove dia bullets.
You really want the patch slightly over the ogive for ease of loading without damaging the patch.

[JosieGun]

A perfect strip ...

[barkerwc4362]

I have experience with the confetti like effect that a properly patched bullet should create when it leaves the muzzle. Like I said in my original post I paper patch for smokeless loads in 45-70. The Browning 1886 and H&R Officer's Model really cut the patch material and all you see in front of them are small strips of paper. I tried paper patch in a Marlin 1895 (really a 336 adapted to 45-70) in 45-70. It was an early one with more of a Ballard type of rifling and not the later micro-groove. That style of rifling would not consistently cut the patch. When ever I had a flyer I would find a remnant of the patch behind the target.

[Don McDowell]

I wet patch that 396 money bullet with a 3/4 inch wide patch cut from Seth Cole 55 w.
That is wide enough to just leave the spru cut visible in the center of the patch fold, but far enough up the side to keep the nose off the lands.

[barkerwc4362]

Thank you Don. I will see if I can round up some of that paper and give it a try. I'll let you know how it works. I have some tracing paper, but it's 24lb, so it will be too thick. I wet patch for this .40 cal and for my smokeless loads as well using the 9lb onion skin.

[Lead pot]

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Where you hold the patch where the ogive ends at the shank depends on the hardness of your alloy. if your using 1/20 T/L or even softer 1/25 T/L hold the end slightly up on the ogive to allow some setback from the diameter expansion and also the softer the alloy that expansion creeps up on the ogive radius also. Thickness of the patch paper also makes a difference how the land cuts end up on the ogive.
Photo 1 are some snow recovered test bullets I wanted to see how this alloy changes with a light load and heavy load of powder using the .45-70 and .45-90 and this alloy is 1/16 T/L. You can see that the alloy and patch is perfect allowing the diameter expansion keeping the land cuts on the patch. I do these tests because I want to see what is going on and not speculate on what will work to get the best down range results.
I mark all my PP moulds with a very slight dimple where the ogive and Shane meet and I hold that patch depending the alloy hardness on that dimple or slightly over it depending the paper thickness. I been doing these snow bank/piles seeing what is going on when the shot is fired since I got my first .44 caliber Rolling block back in 1954 because I missed what I wanted to hit.
Like Don said hold the patch on the base so you see the screw cut like photo 5. This helps the patch remover from the bullet with gas getting under the patch when it clears the muzzle. Yes the lands will cut the patch but most of the small remnants are from the blast of gas tearing the patch when it clears the muzzle.
If you use a twisted tail patch, this is not ideal using a flat based bullet. The twisted tail came about in the early days when the mini ball projectiles were used and also the cut based when they were loaded in fixed cased shells. The cup base got the twisted tail folded in to protect the soft rims and kept the wad from getting pushed in making the wad diameter less and this allows gas to cut the bullet shank. The twisted tail held that wad in place. I can dig out photo's showing this.
When you find paper down range behind the target or stuck on the face of the target I found this going on more when I wet patch or using a lube wad between two thin wads not the proper diameter. if that wad is not at least as wide as the groove diameter that lube gets pushed past the wad and under the patch holding it.
Your use of the Lee push through sizing die is good. This has a benefit for the patch making a good sharp edge on the under fold. I like using a push through die at bore diameter.
1/16 T/L alloy is I feel is about as good as you can use for target work, for hunting I use 1/20 or 1/25. My alloy of choice is 1/18 that is mixed with 18 lbs lead and a one pound roll of no lead solder that is 95%tin 5% antimony. I'm a retired plumber and still have a few rolls left

Hold tight......

Kurt

[Lead pot]

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I must have overloaded the bank. Try a few less

[Don McDowell]

Thank you Don. I will see if I can round up some of that paper and give it a try. I'll let you know how it works. I have some tracing paper, but it's 24lb, so it will be too thick. I wet patch for this .40 cal and for my smokeless loads as well using the 9lb onion skin.

You can usually find it on Amazon. Haven’t checked for awhile but Staples carries an 8lb roll paper in their drafting supplies that is extremely close to Seth Cole

[nuclearcricket]

If you do a google search for seth cole 55y, or w you should get a number of hits. When Iwas looking I ended up finding what I thought was a good deal, I found the paper in 50 foot rolls. It came from a drafting supply in AZ. I am pretty sure I have enough paper to last me a lifetime. In looking at the price for cut sheet and the rolls, the rolls seemed to be the best buy for the buck.
Sam

[barkerwc4362]

Success, well kind of! I got the seth cole 55w in. I now have a lifetime supply. Patching with it instead of the 9lb bond results in a bullet that is about 1/2 thousands less in diameter than that patched with the 9lb. The seth cole also stretches a little more when wrapped, so I had to shorten the patch about 1/8" to prevent overlap. Based upon this I cast 10 bullets from a 1/30 alloy. These I patched with the seth cole and I ended up with a patched diameter about just above .4007 on my micrometer. This still would not fit into my bore. So, I ordered a lee .400 and .399 sizer die. Lee no longer makes the classic sizer die and you have to use their newer breech lock dies. So, I also had to order a kit to convert my rock chucker to use the breech lock system. Not thrilled, but not much of a choice. I had problem with the dies not being retained by the lee adapter, but figured out a way to make them work. The 1/30 alloy seth cole patched bullets sized through the .400 die are a tight fit in the Shiloh 40-70, but would work fine in my Dixie/Pedersoli 40-65. The 1/30 alloy seth cole patched bullets sized through the .399 die slip easily in the bore. Sizing the 1/20 alloy patched bullets through the .399 die alloys them to just fit in the bore of the 40-70.

So, I believe that if I was looking for the optimal cast bullet diameter with the 1/20 alloy for my 40-70 I should have a .394 bullet mold, not the .396 I bought. I can make the .396 work, but probably best to cast them out of 1/30 and use the seth cole paper. Then size them to .399.

The only concern I have is if trying to use the existing bullet mold and 1/20 alloy patched bullets is whether there is enough clearance to use them in a fouled bore versus a clean one. Right now I clean after every shot, but would like to eventually be able to shot more than one shot without cleaning. The 1/30 sized to .399 may give enough clearance to shoot multiple shots in a fouled bore. A .394 mold would definitely give enough. So if you can measure your bore diameter and it comes out at .401 or less order a .394 diameter bullet mold. Even then you will more than likely have to patch with seth cole 55w or equivalent paper.

I am going to try an overall length of 3.650" with this bullet. I places the bullet about a 1/4" in the case. That should be enough to retain the bullet with a light taper crimp. Below are the four bullets I am trying out. From left to right, JIM396415M(1/30-sized to .399), JIM396415M(1/20-sizes .401), JIM410420M4, JIM410400M4, and Lyman Snover.
IMG_1367.jpg

[Don McDowell]

If you want to shoot dirty with that bullet, you might think about seating it a little deeper, with a .030 fiber wad under a 38 caliber Muzzleloader original dry lubed felt wad under the bullet ( the ones they sell for use in capnball revolvers). In addition use a qtip to wipe the exposed patch after the bullet is seated with a light dab of jojoba oil.
For the most part in my 40-70 I use either the 400360 bullet from BACO wrapped in 7 lb paper, or a dual diameter bullet I had made by Steve Brooks, .400 base .4 long with the base of the nose at .395 again wrapped in the 7 lb paper.

[barkerwc4362]

So your bore must be larger than the bores on my Shiloh and my Dixie/Pedersoli. The bore on my Shiloh appears to be .3995-.400, and the Dixie/Pedersoli about .400-.4005 as best I can tell.

[Don McDowell]

No I just seat a little deeper with the long pointed bullets such as the money bullet. Generally I seat the bullets so the leading edge of the patch just engraves the rifling and you can close the breech with just a touch of thumb pressure on the rim.
Hunting type loads or when maybe having to shoot dirty I want the loaded round to just drop into the chamber

[barkerwc4362]

Then your rifle has a much longer throat than my Shiloh. If you look at the second load from the left in my picture on that load the bullet is seated so the patch just engages the rifling. I have maybe a 1/4" between the end of the case and the start of the rifling. With that short of throat a .396" paper patch bullet double wrapped with 7 or 8lb paper is handicapped compared to one of the grooved "Money" bullets with the first two driving bands reduced. Only by sizing the wrapped bullet in a .399" sizer die can I hope to seat the bullet out to the same length as a grooved bullet. A longer tapered throat like the 1 1/2 degree 30 cal throat that was all the rage among the smokeless cast bullet guys about 30 years ago would allow a patched bullet to seat further out and still stay centered.