Non-gun By Definition?

[36g]

Would a device that fired a projectile by means other than gunpowder be considered a firearm?

Thinking a rail gun type of action although could be spring or compress gas initiated. Projectile could be a folding fin stabilized crossbow type of bolt at supersonic velocities. Thinking of shoulder fired as opposed to tripod/gun mount.

I realize that a bolt would be more cross-wind sensitive and for more stability a canted fin to impart spin would be beneficial.

Does this make any sense?

[Recycled bullet]

There are many ways to store and release energy.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

you mean like a Air Archery Arrow Rifle?

https://www.umarexusa.com/umarex-air...th-axeon-scope

[Recycled bullet]

I have to admit that the recoil from a supersonic pneumatic Arrow gun may be catastrophic if you intended it to be shoulder fired

[schutzen-jager]

depends on your state + local jurisdiction - here all air guns r require same licensing + restrictions as any firearm - sling shots + blowguns are strictly verboten + can not be legally owned at all -

[Rhys79]

Here in Indiana I can shoot anything but a firearm, which is defined in IN Code § 35-47-1-5 (2024) as any device designed to or readily converted to be able to propell a projectile by means of an explosion, in city limits. That includes slingshots, blowguns, air rifles, and anything archery. Only limits are it has to be on your own property, or you have to have written consent from the property owner, and you cannot shoot across a public road or park. I have a roughly 3/4 acre lot, and can easily hunt squirrels, rabbits, groundhogs etc. Sometimes I even get deer on the property, and could legally harvest them as long as it's with a bow/crossbow and I follow all the other rules and regs regarding deer hunting (season, permits, etc).

[36g]

you mean like a Air Archery Arrow Rifle?

https://www.umarexusa.com/umarex-air...th-axeon-scope

That's kind of along the lines of what I was thinking only bumping it up to supersonic velocities.

[MrWolf]

[QUOTE=schutzen-jager;5907299]depends on your state + local jurisdiction - here all air guns r require same licensing + restrictions as any firearm - sling shots + blowguns are strictly verboten + can not be legally owned at all

[405grain]

Commiefornia is the most gun unfriendly state in the country, but for the most part air guns are not restricted like actual firearms. As an example; it's illegal to hunt here with any bullets that contain lead - even in muzzleloaders. But with air guns it's no problemo! Also, silencers (suppressors) are illegal here, but several models of air rifles come with a built in suppressor and there doesn't seem to be any problem with that. It's as if the state doesn't consider air guns to be firearms (at least for now).

[357Mag]

36G-

Howdy !

Rail guns impart much higher velocities to their projectiles than do conventional gunpowder-burning firearms and canons. Rail gun projectiles are isolated from the rail gun “ bore “ by a sabot assembly that likely includes a “ foil “ to serve in the electrical conduction process.

Attainable Crossbow “ bolt “ velocities are more towards the opposite end of the velocity spectrum.
These velocities fall short of being supersonic, to my knowledge.


A notional gun where the projectile is propelled by gasses other than those produced by gunpowder combustion seems to be a non-starter. Gerald Bull’s PC-2 “ Super Babylon “ gun design was intended to use a “ specialized propellant “ similar to gunpowder, and was a smooth bore design.
This was a highly-specialized fixed artillery piece, where its massive scale and tons of propellant promised fantastic ballistic performance. Shoulder-fired weapons operate on a much smaller, and comparatively simplified scale.



With regards,
357Mag

[jonp]

I know a guy that ran into Quebec for years that carried a Shark Stick 12g. Not considered a firearm in Canada

[36g]

During WWII there was a concept cannon that utilized a rail gun set up of sorts using successive boosters fired just after the projectile passed by. Was supposed to be able to hit England from the Continent.

Taking that concept and replacing the successive gunpowder charges with atomized fuel (gasoline for example) one could boost a projectile not using gunpowder or gas (as in compressed gas). Supersonic. maybe.

[Hannibal]

Wait until there's a shooting involving an air gun. Then the Government will define the definition.

Happy now?

[Recycled bullet]

I imagine that could be the first stage of a space elevator, bringing heavy construction materials into orbit so that you can build a space station or a battleship. It would just be this tremendous gun and it would Roar and the Earth will tremble. The sky would spit fire and mountains flying out who knows how fast.

[armoredman]

Wait until there's a shooting involving an air gun. Then the Government will define the definition.

Happy now?

Napoleon issued a death sentence for any Englishman caught with an air rifle, as they had no puff of smoke or sound, regardless if he was in uniform or not. They were, even at that time, quite deadly. Modern air rifles can be quite efficient, they ain't Daisy BB guns of our youth!
Arizona legal definition;

"Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of expanding gases, except that it does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.

[357Mag]

36G -

Howdy !

Sequentially adding increasing ( gaseous ) propellant pressure behind the projectile as it passes successive “ ports “ in the barrel, has been experimented with in the past; primarily for potential artillery use.

The sensors and associated valves needed to introduce the propellant pressure of necessity
have to be very fast acting. Something akin to the fast acting valves in military tanks that react to extinguish fires immediately after an internal explosion from an enemy shell. Or, faster.

Again, the scale of the opined weapon would be massive, and nothing like man-portable.
Imagine a multi-cylinder gas engine… where the exhaust gases are instead routed through a fast acting valve into a central bore; like the weapon you mentioned…
The gas released from each combustion chamber would have to be presented to a much smaller chamber area in-order for the gas pressure to rise. Each successive additional discharge would be introduced to an ever-increasing bore volume; as there is no practical way the close the bore off behind the advancing projectile. Introducing hot gasses presents its own set of additional qualifiers, as regards weapon construction, pressures; and operating safety.

In rifles, the “ expansion ratio “ is the ratio of powder charge wt to the total volume of the gun.
That total volume includes the chamber volumne plus the barrel volumne up to the point the bullet exits the bore. To get a favorable expansion ratio, the chamber must be large enough to hold enough propellant ( historically, black powder or gun powder ), and barrel long enough to provide enough expansion space; for the projectile to reach useful velocity for the intended application.

As an aside : “ rocket assisted “ and “ base bleed “ projectiles have been tried, but have not proven practical or particularly useful in a man-portable configuration.


With regards,
357Mag