Elk and a 50-90 rolling block

[muskeg13]

Sounds like it will be a great time.
I picked up a 12.7x44R Swedish rolling block. it's their version of the 50-70 that uses bullets around .504"

I have not tried Black in mine, only 4198, but it shoots pretty good.
the original sights were terrible. I got a taller bead front and a tang mounted peep that installed pretty easily.

The trigger spring on mine was very heavy. some of the guys on here showed me a picture of a piano wire spring. .049"? take one wrap around a screw driver and cut it to length. 3.5# trigger. it's soo much nicer.

Your 600gn bullet will definitely do the job, but something with more of a flat point might hit harder and transfer more energy?

I have two Swedish RBs that started life as 12.7x44Rs. One is an original M1867 military long rifle, and the other is late production Husqvarna commercial action with an 1873 manufactured barrel shortened to 30 inches. Both barrels have a .512 groove diameter with a .500 bore (one is actually .497!). They have the deepest grooves/most prominent lands of anything I've ever seen. I've found the Lyman 515141 450 gr sized to .512 with soft alloy does well. I use Starline 50-70 Gov't brass loaded with 65 grains of Goex FFg for 1168 fps or 60 gr Goex FFg over a 5.2 gr SR4759 duplex priming charge for 1254 fps, so your 4198 load is in the same ballpark. Both my loads shoot about 2-3" at 100. One thing I noticed about the barrel steel when barreling and rechambering the sporter is that it's extremely soft, so be careful with it.

[lar45]

I have two Swedish RBs that started life as 12.7x44Rs. One is an original M1867 military long rifle, and the other is late production Husqvarna commercial action with an 1873 manufactured barrel shortened to 30 inches. Both barrels have a .512 groove diameter with a .500 bore (one is actually .497!). They have the deepest grooves/most prominent lands of anything I've ever seen. I've found the Lyman 515141 450 gr sized to .512 with soft alloy does well. I use Starline 50-70 Gov't brass loaded with 65 grains of Goex FFg for 1168 fps or 60 gr Goex FFg over a 5.2 gr SR4759 duplex priming charge for 1254 fps, so your 4198 load is in the same ballpark. Both my loads shoot about 2-3" at 100. One thing I noticed about the barrel steel when barreling and rechambering the sporter is that it's extremely soft, so be careful with it.

muskeg13, I'm wondering if someone didn't swap 50-70 barrels onto your Swede RB actions?
The top of my barrel has the swedish crown proof mark. Do your barrels have similar proof marks?



I don't think the wider rim of 50-70 brass fit my action, that's why I went with 50 Alaskan brass. I'll have to go check my notes...

[Chill Wills]

I just had a thought; it sure would be -NOT GREAT- if between November 14th and December 31st., I don't get a shot at an elk and come up empty. Anticlimactic for the 50-90 story! In fact, I am going to have my scoped 30-06 along just in case I don't get any close shots and the season drags out. That window of time in Wyoming can be full on winter.

[muskeg13]

muskeg13, I'm wondering if someone didn't swap 50-70 barrels onto your Swede RB actions?
The top of my barrel has the swedish crown proof mark. Do your barrels have similar proof marks?

I don't think the wider rim of 50-70 brass fit my action, that's why I went with 50 Alaskan brass. I'll have to go check my notes...

My RB Sporter has exactly the same Carl Gustafs (Government Arsenal) barrel proof marks as yours. My M-1867 military rifle was manufactured by Husqvarna in 1870 and has their proof marks. I opened the rim recess on my rifles to accept 50-70 brass. Other than that, there was virtually no other steel removed in the rechambering process except a very slight polishing. Both chambers would accept Starline brass except for the rims. I have a copy of "Neutrality through Marksmanship - A Collector's Guide to Swedish Military Rifles 1867-1942" by Doug Bowser. It has some very interesting data:
The Swedish Army rimfire cartridge fired a .479 diameter bullet and the Home Guard bullet was .500 in diameter. The M-1867 rifle had such deep rifling that either the 12.17 or 12.7 diameter bullet could be used and the use of the larger bullet posed no problem as the soft lead bullet easily swages down, and the smaller diameter rimfire bullet "bumps up" to seal the bore. Rimfire Army rifles can be converted to centerfire by swapping out the breechblock (what I did). Rifling twist is 1-20". Both cartridges used a 345 grain bullet to achieve about 1304 fps in full length infantry rifle barrel. The 12.17x42R (rimfire) case is 1.61 inches long and the 12.7x44R centerfire case is 1.73 inches long. Chambers were cut long enough to accept either cartridge, so my 1.75 inch 50-70 cases fit without any problem.
DSCN3930.jpg DSCN3932.jpg

[lar45]

Sorry, we've got a little thread drift going here.

Bringing your 30-06 along also is a great idea.
I happened into a Win Big Bore in 375. It shoots great with 200gn factory ammo.
I've taken it Elk hunting and carried it when I was working heavy timber or other short range areas, then switched to the 06' for other places. I never did see an Elk when I had the 375 in my hands. I'm pretty sure that it would do great out to around 200 yards or so.
Is your tag an any Elk? or a cow only? spike or anterless?
I've been within handgun range, 40-50 yards, of a couple of big Bulls, but I never drew a bull tag. I would put in for first and second choice and always drew the anterless tag. a 350gn cast in a Heavy Ruger only Blackhawk load works, but now that I think of it, all of the rest have been with Corelokts. I would load 165s for my Son's rifle and mine and they worked great for many years. One year he was out of our 165gn handloads and had a box of 150 Corelokts left over from deer season and used those. He said he shot this cow Elk like 6 or 7 times and it would not lay down. It was snowing hard, so he left some orange marker tape in spots down to the road so he could come back in the morning. He found the Elk, a bear had gotten into it so they had to trim off the one front shoulder. He said most of the bullets didn't penetrate through the shoulder and there was very little damage to the lungs. So he never used 150s for Elk again. I tried loading some 180gn Corelokts one year just to try them. I had to hit this cow 4 times to put it down. The first one staggered it, then it got back on it's feet to keep following the herd. After the 4th shot it finally went down. So I switched back to the 165s while I was in Idaho. After I moved to Arkansas, I flew home for Elk season one year and my son had a loner Rem 721 and some 180 Corelokts. All he could find was 150s and 180s. They worked, I just didn't get the same instant drop like the 165s would do. Midway had them on sale and I bought a case of 2000. I shipped my son a pile and I load them in everything 30 cal.
I'd love to hear about your hunt, hopefully you will get in the middle of them. Early morning, so cold your mustache is frozen, fingerless gloves so you can feel the trigger but wish you had mittens over them... it's dark, but you can hear the cows mewing, hopefully it will be light before they drift out of sight... God I miss Idaho. We've got plenty of hogs to shoot down here though, and I can get 5 deer in my area. Only 2 of them can be bucks. The winters are soo much warmer here that they don't get winter kill and have to control the heard size by taking lots of does.

[lar45]

Back to the thread drift, lol
It looks like my Swedish Rolling Block was a rimfire converted to centerfire, only they got it a little off center.





This the measurements from my chamber cast

[Chill Wills]

I took a little break from the hunting rifle project to shoot some matches here a few weeks ago. Before I stopped I had the test loads with kinda hard (13-14 BHN lead) bullets working just so-so at 100yds. Fist sized groups landing about three inches to the right of the aim point. Open iron sights.
I have a little time again and yesterday I cast some test bullets using 50-1 alloy in hopes they will shoot with the same accuracy and be a better hardness, ...really, softness for hunting a cow elk. They test out at 6.5BHN in the 50-1.

Bullets that weight right at 600grns in the hard alloy I first tested come in 606grns in 50-1 alloy.
Here is a picture of them in the pan lube being pushed out over the edge of the work table with a folded cereal box under them to keep the table free of lube. I will be using a .090" LDPE wad over the powder hoping to start that soft bullet out easy.
I plan to test these over the same Black Powder load I have been using with the harder bullets later this week.50cal 605grn 50-1 bullets.jpg

[lar45]

50:1 should definitely expand on a cow Elk. Are you compressing your black powder, then seating the bullet?

[lar45]

In the late 70's, early 80's, a Muzzle loader craze hit southeast Idaho. We all bought T/C Hawken 50 cal kits. My brothers would take me Elk hunting near Henry's lake late in the dall. A 50 cal round ball was very questionable, the 50 Maxiball would anchor them every time, so your 600gn sledgehammer should do very well.

[Chill Wills]

Yes, 50-1 should be plenty soft. I am starting there checking for accuracy. I may need to go a little harder with alloy if accuracy is not up to the need.
This "best" load so far, is a full case of 2F Elephant and zero compression. If tests with the soft alloy shows accuracy promise, I may try tweeking the load up and down a 1/2 grain at a time.

I remember the " ML Craze" well. I was a newly minted firefighter in western Colorado in the Vail - Beaver Creek area and worked off and on for the local gun shop on some days off summer and fall. We sold a lot of ML's and dispensed a lot of advice. Hopefully it was helpful advice. You know about the reputation of gun counter help.

There were a lot of get-to-gather fun ML shoots back then, both safe and sometimes scary. Groups of young men can get a little wild. Especially when in unpopulated Colorado Mountains. I hunted with both cap lock and flinter GPR. The cap lock was a 54 and the flinter was a 50. I only used the 54 for elk using the Maxi-ball. Indeed, very effective!

This Remington Rollingblock big fifty will hold it's own no mater what comes out the muzzle within reason, but still, I always try to make my hunting rifles the best.

[Chill Wills]

I took the opening in the rainy weather to test the soft 50-1 bullets for accuracy yesterday evening. I am not happy with the barrel sights I chose for the rifle and so the accuracy testing on the 100 yd target reflects that. The Rough and Ready barrel sight (rear) and Beaches combination w/ ivory front didn't give me a good sight picture for elevation. Windage is fine but I am having a very hard time with seeing and holding elevation and it shows on the target.

The Rough and Ready rear sight has a flip up staff with a disk (peep-sight) and with that I can shoot better, but, that is not the open sight picture I want for inside 100 yards. My thought was to have the open rear notch set to 100dys and the flip-up sight (peep) set for something like 175 - 200 yards.

My hunting load of 90 grains FFg and the 50-1 lead-tin 606-grain bullet landed up and down the 100 yard target about 4" vertical. I am also going to re-test with a different target reconfiguration next time out. One that I can see and hold better, maybe. A target with an all light field and a 4" or maybe 5" square black in the center. I may have better luck holding elevation on it.

[marvelshooter]

600 grain boolit and 90 grains of BP. My shoulder hurts thinking about it.

[Chill Wills]

Last night testing the hunting load and trying to get the barrel sight sliding disk peep-sight adjusted close enough to print on paper, it was "one more shot" and "Okay - one more shot" walking the impacts in to get on paper. The last shot did not go bang! I waited a very long time with the action closed thinking there was a chance it was a hang-fire, as unlikely as that could be. I opened the action and the primer was un-dented and there wasn't pin sticking out of the breach face.
Broken firing pin tip I guessed. Tonight I took the rifle apart and pulled what was left of the pin, which is the FP body. Sure enough! Broken off.

That action, a #5 Remington Rolling Block is how old? ...one hundred years plus and been fired an unknown amount in it's life as a service rifle before I made it a BPCR. There is no complaining about that. I just need to try to rebuild the firing pin.

The pin hole in the breach face will require an 0.086" replacement pin for a good fit and I have 0.092" high carbon Music Wire from McMaster-Carr. I am going to drill it out for the 0.092" and then turn the pin down to fit the breach block. I like about 0.055 to 0.060" protrusion.

[Chill Wills]

Yesterday evening I chucked up what was left of the firing pin (FP), meaning the body of the FP and drilled out the broken smaller stub of what once was the pin part that contacted the primer. I drilled into the body 0.200" and inserted a short length, maybe 5/8" long of the Music Wire and used red Loctite 271 to hopefully hold it in place. I turned the diameter down to a close fit in the hole through the breach block and then cut it to length making a nice smooth hemisphere with 0.060" for the primer.

I shot the rifle at 100yds again tonight to check that the repair would be okay and was fighting with the ivory dot in the front sight again for two shots. I had a thought. I used black sharpy on the front sight and wow! What in improvement. The remaining seven shots went into about 4" vertical. Not exactly target accuracy but much better! And, ...the new FP works so far.

Here is a rolling block breech face, one rimfire and the other center fire.

[lar45]

My Swede was a rimfire, you can see where it was plugged.
The new hole was drilled slightly off center. It occasionally just nicks the side of the primer pocket. I don't think it's damaging the brass.