Fireforming

[Thundermaker]

Not sure where this should go. It's not really about paper patching , but it is about preparing my brass for loading paper patched.

I'm finally getting around to loading for my new shilohs.

The first thing I need to do is anneal some of this new starline brass and fireform it.

To that end, I figured I would just cast some 500gr "government" bullets from an old Lyman mold I have, load them over a greased felt wad with enough Scheutzen 2f to just barely fill the case, and punch some paper.

It'll give me an opportunity to get familiar with the guns and see if my lube mix is up to snuff for those 34" barrels without wasting my time
or my limited stash of Swiss.

I don't think a naked, grease-groove bullet will hurt that shiloh's chamber, even though they are geared toward paper parched bullets, but I thought I'd run it by the folks who have been there and done that.

If I'm about to commit a blasphemy, by all means, let me know.

[Randy Bohannon]

What cartridge are you talking about ?

[JosieGun]

With new brass (I use Starline exclusively) I always anneal first and load BP PPB bore riders for .45-70 and .44 Magnum. For the new .45-70 brass I use a straight .460 expand plug in a Lyman "M" die for "faux fire forming" - this allows loading paper patched bore riders that sit in .100" into the case mouth and a .45 taper die applies a light squeeze that will retain the patched slick but allow it to rotate and be removed/replaced.

[Thundermaker]

What cartridge are you talking about ?

One is a 45-70. The other is a 45-100

[country gent]

What you propose will do the job If you have the true paper patched chamber then 2 things to watch for are OAL may be shorter due to lack of throat and Grease groove bullets may not chamber easily do to larger dia. Make sure loaded neck dia is good with the grease groove bullets.

Doing the fire forming with the actual PP bullets will allow you to work up loads as you go and get rough zeros.

[MichaelR]

I don’t know how much experience you have with loading for black powder but I recommend three books.

The Sharps Rifle, the gun that shaped American destiny.

Randolph Wrights Paper patch book.

The SPG reloading manual.

All available from Shiloh sharps. The sharps book has the reloading instructions for sharps rifles. Use fiber milk cartons for your wads, bees wax and jojoba oil for lube, and sharps rifles used tapered bullets to allow loading into a fouled chamber.

[Lead pot]

Not sure where this should go. It's not really about paper patching , but it is about preparing my brass for loading paper patched.

I'm finally getting around to loading for my new shilohs.

The first thing I need to do is anneal some of this new starline brass and fireform it.

To that end, I figured I would just cast some 500gr "government" bullets from an old Lyman mold I have, load them over a greased felt wad with enough Scheutzen 2f to just barely fill the case, and punch some paper.

It'll give me an opportunity to get familiar with the guns and see if my lube mix is up to snuff for those 34" barrels without wasting my time
or my limited stash of Swiss.

I don't think a naked, grease-groove bullet will hurt that shiloh's chamber, even though they are geared toward paper parched bullets, but I thought I'd run it by the folks who have been there and done that.

If I'm about to commit a blasphemy, by all means, let me know.

Thundermaker,

The secret reloading for these BPCR is keep it simple. You will read a lot of witches brews on your one eyed monster you're looking at now.
The Starline brass is very good stuff and your Shiloh chamber also is good and a little tighter than the average chambers in other rifles made. With the starling cases it is a good idea to anneal the necks first and for the Shiloh just run them through the resizing die and maybe use a taper crimp die to put a little tension on the bullet if you want it to stay in the case and you will find that the first shot might be the same as the second loading.
You're really not forming the brass that is straight wall like the .45-70. Fire forming is taking a shell case like the .30-40 Krag or the .303 Britishcase that is a bottle neck case and fire forming ,say in a .38-55 rifle that is a straight wall chamber and blowing out the bottle necked shell to a straight wall case or taking a .45-70 case and making say a .40-70 BN where you have to blow out the shoulder.
Keep it simple. A primer will go off if the primer cup is not to hard or your rifle has a soft spring or broken firing pin.
Tech when I was a kid and started reloading the old .43 roller I opened the blasting powder keg in the machine shed we used for splitting Maple tree logs so we could handle them cutting firewood on the old WD Alice and Mother used to get after me for taking her flour sifter I used for sifting out the fines from that powder. Blasting powder had a lot of course stuff in it. But every shot went off just fine.
Keep it simple and you will get along just fine.

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Really don’t need to fireformed straight cases. Annealing srarline before loading and shooting is a good idea.

[JosieGun]

Really don’t need to fireformed straight cases. Annealing srarline before loading and shooting is a good idea.

Mebbe, mebbe not, depends. New Starline brass will not always accept a specific PPB diameter. This has happened to me many times. The easy solution, without fire forming, is to straight plug expand the case and that simulates fire forming (I anneal again after the plug expansion so that the brass will better seal the chamber after ignition). For the .45-70 and its ilk I use a .460 straight expansion plug (BuffaloArms) in a Lyman M die.

[Don McDowell]

A lot depends on the size die you use in the first place along with the diameter of your bullet after it’s patched.

[Thundermaker]

Leadpot, maybe fireforming isn't quite the right word. What i mean is expanding the case mouth to the chamber.

Being that it's new brass, I was going to anneal it, and fireform it with some Scheutzen. I just didn't want to waste my finite amount of Swiss when the neck tension was going change anyway, and the load that I worked up initially would probably shoot differently on subsequent loadings. All that being the case, I didn't want to waste lead casting those 1 1/4 ounce slugs and time to patch them just for the fireforming stage.

That was my logic anyway. If you guys think it's worth it to start working up a load right away, I may go that route.

[Lead pot]

You just do what you feel is right for you. There is just not one way.
It's beneficial to do case prep so you get a consistent bullet release. Neck tension variances on the bullet changes the pressure that opens the group on the target.

[Thundermaker]

I also have a neck tension die from buffalo arms. That's something I plan to play with.

[JosieGun]

Everything about a proper bore rider PPB is about the final diameter of the patched slick as it compares to the bore diameter of the bbl the BP PPB cartridge will be loaded into.

The neck tension of a bore rider PPB should be near zero ... IOW, just enough to retain the PPB, allow it to be turned around, removed, and replaced.

IMHO the fit of a bore rider PPB should be as close as possible to the bore of the bbl. A loose fitting PPB is not the goal of a cartridge build.

[Thundermaker]

Everything about a proper bore rider PPB is about the final diameter of the patched slick as it compares to the bore diameter of the bbl the BP PPB cartridge will be loaded into.

The neck tension of a bore rider PPB should be near zero ... IOW, just enough to retain the PPB, allow it to be turned around, removed, and replaced.

IMHO the fit of a bore rider PPB should be as close as possible to the bore of the bbl. A loose fitting PPB is not the goal of a cartridge build.

I'm not using a bore rider. I'm using a dual diameter bullet. I'm probably starting the hardest way possible, but we'll see how it goes.

[JosieGun]

I'm not using a bore rider. I'm using a dual diameter bullet. I'm probably starting the hardest way possible, but we'll see how it goes.

Does the FRONT end of yer dual diameter bullet fit into the bbl lands or grooves?