Willy Snyder
PO Box 2732
Pocatello, ID 83206
17 Ackley Bee
I loaded up 50 and went out to fire form them today. Brought 48 home to pull the bullets out of.
The two on the left were loaded with CCI 400, 20 grain V-max and 13.5 grains of H4198. I had to tap them out with a cleaning rod.
IMG_2667.jpgIMG_2663.jpeg
Fired case necks mic .197 on my cases and the one Denis Olson gave me when I picked up the barreled action. Loaded round necks mic .192
I could barely fit 12.5 4198 in my 17 Ackley Bee Contender. Because of the small case pressures peak fast.
If you are going to make a hole in something. MAKE IT A BIG ONE!
That is a fire forming load in Kindler’s book. It fills it to right below the case mouth on this un fire formed Hornady brass. I’m going to look around for another powder. We use 1680 in out 17 Hornets, maybe I can find a load listed that uses it.
Too much pressure. Back off on the powder.
Gee, sure wish I had thought of that, I knew I must have overlooked something.
Stevie Wonder could see that the pressure is too high. I have dozens upon dozens of loading manuals and have revisited as many articles and there is absolutely nothing to suggest that if everything else is right that this should not be a mild load.
In fact there is one recurring statement that shows up and that being that handloaders frequently have dipped a case in H4198, scraped off the excess with a business card and loaded a 20 or 25 grain bullet.
That suggests to me that as likely as not “everything else isn’t right.” I’m kind of quirky in as much as when something might not be right, I kind of like to figure out why.
Last edited by JDHasty; 08-19-2025 at 11:37 AM.
From here, it looks like those two have too long of a neck.
That could cause a pressure spike, I think.
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Sounds like the inside case mouths are too thick.
ACC
Checked and rechecked neck thickness and length and they look good. I know it looks like that to me in the photo too. Had to run down stairs and check it again. All three fired cases are almost exactly the same length.
I had a nice long talk with a powder guy this morning and powders, particularly extruded powders, the burn rate speeds up with age. Extruded powders they just can’t wash as much of the acid out of and even though stabilizers are added the remaining acid eventually uses them up. Ball powders are much less affected because they can wash more of the acids out of.
So I have a LOT on my plate today, but if I can get a couple rounds loaded up with H335 I’m going to see if I can get a few shots in at the main range while my daughter s at Smallbore practice.
Or you happened to get some very soft(?) primers. I have always had go luck with CCI primers, but there is always a chance for soft primers.Originally Posted by JDHasty
ACC
Well the primers aren't flat. What does the tip of the firing pin look like? If it is rough, it could be a contributing factor. It may be protruding too far also.
Robert
Yeah, I'm with MK42gunner here. That looks like a firing pin protrusion problem. Interestingly, I'm not seeing any soot around the holes, which I would expect, especially in a rifle cartridge...
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Definitely a bit of high pressure. I made sure to anneal so that the heat ran down to the shoulder, that makes them a little sticky right off the bat, but they stick a bit more than I like to see. I’ve seen too many 17 AB cases w/cracks in the shoulder to not have been paying attention to that. The firing pin could be a tiny bit long and combined with the powerful spring in the Martini it could account for the piercing. I picked up a fresh pound of H4198 this morning and should have a few rounds put together by Thursday. Time got away from me this morning.
Thanks for the responses.
Has the firing pin been bushed? The pics don't show blanking from a firing pin hole clearance issue versus firing pin size but the older BP sized firing pins sizes will do what you are seeing.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...iring-pin-hole
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums...pin%20to%20fit.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 08-19-2025 at 04:46 PM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
Yes it has. I’ll load up a couple with 12.5 grains tonight and try and just run by and shoot them into the berm tomorrow. If they are good I can load 50 tomorrow night and then spend the day at the range breaking in the barrel on Thursday.
It’s a slow go pulling the trigger pin to clean every round, my buddy replaces his with a screw he makes up on his lath that has a head similar to a Winchester pump action rimfire but larger.
Well, better but not that great. So I goes home and cogitates on it while doing a few chores.
I thought about where the bullet was in relation to the lands. Since I didn’t have an altered Stony Point case I just ran a case over my K& N Expand Iron and then took the expander assy out of the FL die and gave it enough to hold a bullet firmly but gently and shoved that into the chamber to locate the lands. It measures 1.855 OAL. Then I seated the bullets 1.790 OAL. .055 or so short of the lands.
I remembered that when I was first talking about this project that I was down at Wisners and Jim had given me a sample loaded cartridge. So I’m going to clean the gun and load ten more starting at 12.5 grains and head back out in the morning. If that clears up the pressure issue I’ll load up 50 and shoot tomorrow evening while B is at Smallbore practice.
IMG_4124.jpg
left to right. Round I got from Jim. My loaded but unfireformed round. Fireformed case with bullet seated in sized case mouth and pushed into the chamber to locate the lands.
Per the pic the case on the right appears to show reamer marks on the case? That would explain the hard extraction for what should be a usable load. You may have two separate issues. Even the pierced primers do not show the severely flattened primes normally associated with blanked and pierced primers due to over pressure.
Also, the firing pin indent looks to be larger than 0.062". The firing pin hole should have be sized to 0.065" for a 0.062" firing pin. This is for a Rem 700 but these sizes have worked very well for me. https://bordenrifles.com/wp-content/...g_pin_bush.pdf
Per scaling the pics the blown area appears to be about 0.090". If correct that is still BP size?
The data below is using the IMR 4198 at 14.5 grains with a 25-grain bullet.
https://loaddata.com/Metallic/MetallicPrintable?id=966
Last edited by M-Tecs; 08-20-2025 at 11:10 PM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
I’ll pull the block out tomorrow morning and measure the firing pin hole again.
.197 vs .192 so that neck clearance should be good. Bullets drop right into a fired case. I'm also seeing some roughness on the neck from reamer marks and think that may account for the sticking. They aren't stuck all that tight, a mild tap from the rod is all it takes to free them.
Went to the range with ten more and they were markedly better, but still hanging up the bolt on the primer flow into the firing pin hole. It's not much, and the hole looks to be bushed tight, but it doesn't take more than a few ten thousandths to hang it up. I have CCI Military Grade SR primers here and Remington 7 1/2s. Tomorrow I am going to try them. No more pierced primers tonight though, just mild cratering. So it appears that seating the bullets deeper at least partially solved the pressure issue. The two I fired the first day loaded with 13.5 grains blanked them both clean. The ones loaded to 13.5 grains today looked markedly better. Cratered, but not blown through.
Having the annealing run down to the shoulder always tends to make for a case that is a little sticky on the first shot when the brass is fire formed, if I get a fully formed shoulder, in my experience. The firing pin hole is shaving just a skim off the extruded primer. If the tougher primers solve that I think that I'm practically home free. Once I get it working smoothly I will set up the chrono and see what velocities I am getting.
I have 15 fire formed cases now, so I will try them tomorrow too. Starting at 12.5 grains and see how they react. I have a mess of 20 grain Nosler bullets here. I have been working from a bag of 20 grain V-max blems. I just want to change one thing at a time to see if I can isolate what the issue is. The cleaning rod goes through the barrel like greased lightning.
The more I think about it being an under size bore, let's just say I'm less inclined to that being likely. This is a hammer forged barrel, so right off the bat it being undersized would not be something to expect as likely. It was also originally on a 457 Lux and came off when it was new. I would be highly skeptical that CZ would not be double checking for any undersize barrel leaving the plant on a 17 HMR. That scenario could easily result in an extractor being blown off into a shooter and a lawsuit it would be hard to make a tenable case against gross negligence on. The rifles are test fired prior to being shipped as well and a tight bore would at a bare minimum result in a bulged RF case head, that would send up red flags.
Last edited by JDHasty; 08-21-2025 at 06:42 PM.
Hammer Forged barrels use either a full-length rifled mandrel or a partial that stays under the hammers to form the bore as hundreds of thousand little hammer blows form the barrel around the mandrel. It would be highly unlikely that that bore is undersize.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
Interesting video. Thanks.
That was my thoughts as well.
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