Fun with a Webley Mark IV 38/200 AKA 38 S&W AKA 380 Rimmed

[Outpost75]

Clarification:

The bulk of my testing yesterday was done with the AUTHENTIC MKI bullet - which is our NOE 363-204-RN

The one string was fired with the 364-207-RN which I purchase years prior, not yet knowing what the correct bullet for the MKI loading was. It looks a lot like the .455 MKII bullet in miniature - albeit without the hollow base.

The gun seems to shoot both bullets with equal accuracy, though I think the defective interface of old eyes with crappy sights is the limiting factor there. With larger sample groups to dial out the operator induced flyers, the gun itself seems to have a good ability to stack them tightly.

Thanks for the clarification. I am shooting 2.5 Bullseye in the Victory S&W. I think that might be a bit much for the Webley, Enfield or Albion top-breaks. Also very accurate at 700 fps with 3.3 Bullseye in the .38 Special.

[Bigslug]

Outpost, what is your 2.5gr Bullseye load clocking?

Both of us are well off the scale of the Lyman book, but between the fact they're using a single shot without a cylinder gap as a test platform and have to be literally gun-shy presenting data to folks with ancient Iver Johnsons, I can't really throw too many stones.

We would seem to have our own little .45-70 that needs three separate and distinct sets of load data: the garbage top breaks; the good British top breaks; and the sturdier swing-outs. The Indian Rugers might well justify a fourth.

[Outpost75]

1930s Western 200 grain Lubaloy from S&W 5" Victory .38 S&W with 0.006" Barrel-cylinder gap 596 fps, 19 Sd

WW2 Kynoch 146 LRN 695 fps, 17 Sd

1950s Western 146 grain Lubaloy 679 fps, 10 Sd

Modern R-P 146 LRN 639 fps, 15 Sd

Modern Fiocchi 146 LRN 692 fps, 11Sd

FN84 .380 Mk2z 616 fps, 10 Sd

NOE .363-204 RN, R-P case, WSP, 2.5 Bullseys 617 fps, 14 Sd
2.1 Bullseye 567 fps, 16 Sd
1.7"Bullseye 496 fps, 22Sd

I have data for my India Model Ruger also, but won't post it on a public forum.
Suffice to say was pressure tested to 20kpsi and gives full .38 Special velocities.

[Bigslug]

Nice! Looks like Bullseye and Titegroup are tracking pretty closely to each other with the MKI bullet - at least with charges 2 grains or higher. Titegroup maybe a bit better on the SD numbers for the lighter charges.

[Outpost75]

Nice! Looks like Bullseye and Titegroup are tracking pretty closely to each other with the MKI bullet - at least with charges 2 grains or higher. Titegroup maybe a bit better on the SD numbers for the lighter charges.

I believe you are right there. I found that 452AA and WST also fall in there nearly weight for weight. Might need to increase 0.1-0.2 grain depending upon lot to lot variation.

[Bigslug]

OK SPORTS FANS! GOOD, USEABLE MKI PENETRATION & TUMBLING DATA!

For visuals, go back to page 14 and post#266 - not much different to look at, but I increased the size of the data pool today.

As before, I fired the MKI bullet with a load averaging right on the 590 fps of the service ammo (592fps from testing covered back on post #295).

The same technique of sandwiching a sheet of soda can aluminum between water-filled gallon milk jugs was used to register any tumbling effect. Data as follows:

FIRST SHOT:
First jug, into second jug: bullet penetrated nose on
Second jug, into third jug: bullet travelling completely sideways
Third jug, into fourth jug: bullet travelling completely sideways
Fourth jug, into fifth jug: bullet appears to have struck nose-on, but still clearly tumbling.
Fifth jug - bullet exited high & right, slapping the corner of the aluminum on the way out. Bullet not recovered.

This first shot actually gave very good results. I pulled out all the aluminum sheets and stacked them together. In those four pierced sheets, the bullet only climbed about two inches with no appreciable lateral movement. Despite the tumbling, the path through the mixed media of plastic, water, and aluminum was a fairly straight line.

SECOND SHOT:
Outsmarted myself. . .first shot exited high and right, so I held the second shot low and left. . .and the bullet went in a straight line and exited the left side of the fourth jug.

Fortunately, it didn't have much gas left and was captured by my row of flanking jugs, but did not penetrate them. The bullet was picked up off the ground between the two rows even with the middle of the fifth jug. Some evidence of tumbling, but as the bullet was travelling closer to the left side of the jugs and aluminum sheets, not the best register.

THIRD SHOT:
Bullet exited the fourth jug and was lost. Clearly was tumbling at the junctions between 2nd/3rd and 3rd/4th jugs.

CONCLUSIONS:
If my prior fuzzy math comparing duty hollowpoint ammo results in both FBI gelatin and gallon jugs is correct, one gallon jug equals roughly 4.5" inches of gelatin.

Path deviation and lack of recovery keeps final penetration numbers a little uncertain, but my guess is that this load would pretty consistently either stop in jug #6, or bounce off the jug #5 / #6 boundary layers and stay in jug #5. In theory, that would put penetration in gel in the 22.5" to 27" range. Even playing conservatively at four jugs, we're making 18", which is the top end of the FBI's "desirable" 12"-18" range.

The tumbling effect - in water, at least - is consistent.

The wound track is relatively straight for the first four jugs. . .which is theoretically that same 18" of gel. That dispels our earlier concerns of significant deviation off the intended line of travel.

The bullet is clearly still travelling point first at our 1st/2nd jug boundary - theoretically 4.5" inches of gel, but is obviously spinning at the boundaries of 2/3 and 3/4 - presumably about nine and 13.5" inches of gel, respectively.

In a nutshell, this round is no joke, and probably not far off the modern "Flower Of Doom" duty rounds for effectiveness - - at least if you equate travelling through the target sideways to a copper jacket opening out with spinning blades to increase wound track diameter. The first 2-3 jugs in the stack get torn pretty badly. I would rate it is as likely more destructive than the .455 MKII load which seems to want to pencil though in a straight line.

So there ya go. Best I can do short of actual gelatin. While I DO have a contact in the factory ammo / gel testing world, ballistic gel is expensive stuff so I hesitate to ask. If I can piggyback onto another agency's testing of duty ammo with a few shots at the end of the day, we may get more scientific about this, but for now, That's All, Folks!

[LouisianaMan]

OK SPORTS FANS! GOOD, USEABLE MKI PENETRATION & TUMBLING DATA!

For visuals, go back to page 14 and post#266 - not much different to look at, but I increased the size of the data pool today.

As before, I fired the MKI bullet with a load averaging right on the 590 fps of the service ammo (592fps from testing covered back on post #295).

The same technique of sandwiching a sheet of soda can aluminum between water-filled gallon milk jugs was used to register any tumbling effect. Data as follows:

FIRST SHOT:
First jug, into second jug: bullet penetrated nose on
Second jug, into third jug: bullet travelling completely sideways
Third jug, into fourth jug: bullet travelling completely sideways
Fourth jug, into fifth jug: bullet appears to have struck nose-on, but still clearly tumbling.
Fifth jug - bullet exited high & right, slapping the corner of the aluminum on the way out. Bullet not recovered.

This first shot actually gave very good results. I pulled out all the aluminum sheets and stacked them together. In those four pierced sheets, the bullet only climbed about two inches with no appreciable lateral movement. Despite the tumbling, the path through the mixed media of plastic, water, and aluminum was a fairly straight line.

SECOND SHOT:
Outsmarted myself. . .first shot exited high and right, so I held the second shot low and left. . .and the bullet went in a straight line and exited the left side of the fourth jug.

Fortunately, it didn't have much gas left and was captured by my row of flanking jugs, but did not penetrate them. The bullet was picked up off the ground between the two rows even with the middle of the fifth jug. Some evidence of tumbling, but as the bullet was travelling closer to the left side of the jugs and aluminum sheets, not the best register.

THIRD SHOT:
Bullet exited the fourth jug and was lost. Clearly was tumbling at the junctions between 2nd/3rd and 3rd/4th jugs.

CONCLUSIONS:
If my prior fuzzy math comparing duty hollowpoint ammo results in both FBI gelatin and gallon jugs is correct, one gallon jug equals roughly 4.5" inches of gelatin.

Path deviation and lack of recovery keeps final penetration numbers a little uncertain, but my guess is that this load would pretty consistently either stop in jug #6, or bounce off the jug #5 / #6 boundary layers and stay in jug #5. In theory, that would put penetration in gel in the 22.5" to 27" range. Even playing conservatively at four jugs, we're making 18", which is the top end of the FBI's "desirable" 12"-18" range.

The tumbling effect - in water, at least - is consistent.

The wound track is relatively straight for the first four jugs. . .which is theoretically that same 18" of gel. That dispels our earlier concerns of significant deviation off the intended line of travel.

The bullet is clearly still travelling point first at our 1st/2nd jug boundary - theoretically 4.5" inches of gel, but is obviously spinning at the boundaries of 2/3 and 3/4 - presumably about nine and 13.5" inches of gel, respectively.

In a nutshell, this round is no joke, and probably not far off the modern "Flower Of Doom" duty rounds for effectiveness - - at least if you equate travelling through the target sideways to a copper jacket opening out with spinning blades to increase wound track diameter. The first 2-3 jugs in the stack get torn pretty badly. I would rate it is as likely more destructive than the .455 MKII load which seems to want to pencil though in a straight line.

So there ya go. Best I can do short of actual gelatin. While I DO have a contact in the factory ammo / gel testing world, ballistic gel is expensive stuff so I hesitate to ask. If I can piggyback onto another agency's testing of duty ammo with a few shots at the end of the day, we may get more scientific about this, but for now, That's All, Folks!

MUCH appreciated effort, Bigslug! Your results sound very similar to what I experienced some years back when I was shooting some .38 Super Police (equivalent to British service Mk 1), Mk 2Z, .38 Special Super Police, and some handloads with a group buy 358430 clone. Your use of the aluminum separators, however, is a great improvement on anything I did. Likewise, I applaud you sticking to the original MILSPEC 590 fps MV. As I hit 630, the tumbling became less pronounced, and by the upper 600s the bullet was too stable to tumble or veer much within the 6-jug array I used.

I hope you can take a crack at some calibrated gel!! Not that it's necessarily the be-all, end-all measurement of effectiveness, but it's THE standard by which modern handgun ammo is measured. Personally, I've thought of the .38-200 as the "poor man's hollowpoint" aka a "non-expanding hollowpoint," in that it's design intent was to get a non-deforming bullet to inflict greater damage than typical ball ammo. To make any comparison complete, however, that calibrated gel test is a must.

[Bigslug]

[B]
Path deviation and lack of recovery keeps final penetration numbers a little uncertain, but my guess is that this load would pretty consistently either stop in jug #6, or bounce off the jug #5 / #6 boundary layers and stay in jug #5. In theory, that would put penetration in gel in the 22.5" to 27" range. Even playing conservatively at four jugs, we're making 18", which is the top end of the FBI's "desirable" 12"-18" range.

A slight edit to add material here backing this conclusion up with stuff discussed WAY earlier: Years ago before I acquired my Webleys, I was able to shoot FBI gelatin with the 195 grain Lyman 358430 at 570 fps out of a S&W J-frame in an attempt to replicate the MKI concept. The two shots fired completely penetrated the 18" block in a straight line with no tumbling and were stopped by the hard rubber barrier placed for that purpose. No telling how deep they would have gone.

Bullet design and tumbling / not tumbling differences between the 358430 and MKI aside, there is enough momentum to penetrate that much at that speed. Effectively, the MKI is attempting to do what the modern hollow or soft point does - trade penetration for destruction of tissue surrounding the wound path. To determine to what degree it does that would require more shots that result in capturing the bullets before they run out of media, but I think that question is largely moot: both penetrate enough for the intended purpose and the MKI IS more destructive than a round nose that stays stable and point-first.

English ballisticians in the 1920's-1930's: NOT DUMMIES!

[pettypace]

A slight edit to add material here backing this conclusion up with stuff discussed WAY earlier: Years ago before I acquired my Webleys, I was able to shoot FBI gelatin with the 195 grain Lyman 358430 at 570 fps out of a S&W J-frame in an attempt to replicate the MKI concept. The two shots fired completely penetrated the 18" block in a straight line with no tumbling and were stopped by the hard rubber barrier placed for that purpose. No telling how deep they would have gone.

Actually, there are ways to tell how deep those non-tumbling 358430 bullets would have penetrated. The mathematical models of both MacPherson and Schwartz predict about 28" of penetration in 10% ordnance gelatin. (See, for example, post #223)

What the mathematical models can't predict is the actual path and penetration of the tumbling bullet. In my testing with a variety of 200 grain tumblers at about 600 f/s, I got penetrations ranging from 12" to 19" in Clear Ballistic gel with enough variation in the curvature of the bullet path to discourage further testing.

Even so, I still like the "effective diameter" idea which suggests that a tumbling 38/200 is likely in the same league as .45 hardball or .38 target WC in terms of tissue destruction in the 12" to 18" FBI slot. In other words, I agree with Bigslug's assessment that "In a nutshell, this round is no joke."

[Bigslug]

What the mathematical models can't predict is the actual path and penetration of the tumbling bullet. In my testing with a variety of 200 grain tumblers at about 600 f/s, I got penetrations ranging from 12" to 19" in Clear Ballistic gel with enough variation in the curvature of the bullet path to discourage further testing. [/I]"

The impression I had from the three shots taken is that - in water at least - the MKI's momentum is sufficient to keep it going in a pretty straight line for as long as a human torso is likely to be concerned. At the five jug mark - where I started losing bullets - they may have slowed down enough that the resistance of the water is causing them to veer. At that point, however, assuming my 1 jug = 4.5" of gelatin theory is reasonably correct, the bullet will have exited and we no longer care. Gel, being stouter stuff, may cause deviation sooner???

[Outpost75]

Wanted to dust off this thread with pics of vintage 1920s.Colt Police Positives in .38 New Police. Two-inch, 2-1/2 inch and 5-inch. The snubbies were gunsmith shortened many years ago. The work done skillfully with tight cylinder gaps less than 0.005" and correct lockup. Both old reblues.

The 5-inch is original as it came from the factory.

BK Grips adapters were modified to fit the prewar D-frames.

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[jrayborn]

Very nice set you have there