Smokeless powder in MagTech brass shotgun shells?

[GunStuff]

I was looking for velocities of smokeless loads in 16 gauge Magtech brass. You did not include a smokeless load in your Magtech brass to make a comparison, but thank you for your data.

[Outpost75]

Classic Old English Style Light 12-bore Game Loads:

W.W. Greener, in the ninth edition (1910) of his book The Gun And Its Development, stated that the correct shot charge should weigh no more than 5 times as much as its its black powder charge. For a 12-bore gun firing 3 drams (82 grains) of black powder, the correct weight of shot was deemed to be 15/16 oz. or 410 grains.

Similarly, the minimum weight for a light game gun to mitigate against the effects of gun recoil headache is 100 times the weight of shot fired. For a 15/16 oz. shot load your flyweight upland game gun should weigh not less than 5.86 pounds. My folding Beretta FS-1 is actually a ½ pound less than that but is entirely manageable with a padded slip-on leather butt cover over its steel butt plate using Best Classic Shotshells from RST.

I reproduced British "light game" 2-3/4 dram - 1 ounce loads in 2-1/2 inch Magtech cases with Federal 155 large pistol magnum primers, 5 grams (78 grains) of black powder and 15/16 oz. of shot. Firing in a 27-inch Beretta FS-1 single-barrel velocity with 2Fg Elephant powder was 920 fps, 2Fg Goex 1024 fps and 3Fg Goex 1182 fps.

A smokeless load closely matching the black powder payload and velocity was assembled in Magtech all-brass 2-1/2 shells using 18 grains Alliant Red Dot, a Ballistic Products .125 card over powder wad two ½” waxed fiber cushion wads, one ounce of shot with a .080 overshot card roll crimped and lacquered over the mouth of the case. Velocity was 1033 fps with a standard deviation of only 8 fps.

The same components can be assembled successfully in a Winchester AA case and given a normal 8-fold crimp. The old school shot shell without shot sleeve gives a more open pattern which is very useful in a typical full-choke single-barrel gun.

If using black powder with the standard Euro load of 5 grams or 78 grains (2-3/4 drams) of black, use one ½ inch fiber cushion wad in the 2-1/2 inch case.

Attachment 279704

[Cowhide]

Finding a smokeless powder charge data for MagTech all brass shotgun shells is what led me to this site. But for the 20ga to be shot out of over under Beretta silver pigeon shotguns and a pair of Tri Star over under shotguns. My CH4D 20ga die set and 20ga shell holder finally was in stock in May 2021 Circle Fly is out of the Nitro card and over shoot card and cushion wads for the 20ga so I have time to gather the powder. I just do not know what shotgun powder to look for.
The reloading brass shotshells green in color 1st edition 40 pages on page 15 it does say that "there is nothing inherent in the design of either shell that would preclude the use of smokeless powder, assuming the gun shells were to be fired in was proofed for smokeless powder. The only problem is there is no laboratory-tested pressure data available, as all modern labs are set up for paper or plastic shells" It does list a few smokeless powder loads for use in 12ga all brass. sadly no 20ga all brass loads.

[zarrinvz24]

Would you mind letting the masses know which book states that? I’ve been trying to find some loads for 12ga Magtech but more and more it looks like I’m going to have to start from scratch.

[Cowhide]

Would you mind letting the masses know which book states that? I’ve been trying to find some loads for 12ga Magtech but more and more it looks like I’m going to have to start from scratch.

The Green book that Ballistic Products makes. Circle fly sells them. Reloading brass Shotshells (green book) 1st edition upc on back of book is OOMBRASS it is a soft cover book. my copy that I purchased in 2012 has 40 pages but a more current production copy might have more pages. On page 15 in the chapter 1: Practical Tips for Versatility

[rush7767@aol.com]

Attachment 186426
I also have an old Alcan manual,but that file exceeds forum limits.PM with e-mail if your interested.

Interested in manual
Send to rush7767@aol.com

[toot]

looking for 16 gauge BP, loads light & medium power, & what size wads to buy, for my all brass magtec 16 gauge hulls and my 16 GAUGE DBL HAMMER GUN.

[8x33]

Hello from Germany,
do you know this Video: https://www.thereloadersnetwork.com/...h-12ga-shells/
the trick is the crimp,
with this unusual tool it works:

[daleraby]

I've done a BIT of experimentation with the MagTech brass shells in 16 Gauge using 15 grains (by Lee scoop) Green Dot powder under a patched .626 round ball mostly. This load is accurate enough for deer hunting at thirty yards or so (about average for Wisconsin) and has very little recoil. I'm using an old single shot Pioneer Model 29 (Gambles "store brand"... probably made by Savage for Gambles). No idea what kind of velocity I'm getting. May conduct some penetration tests using gallon plastic jugs when I have a few empty ones. The .626 patched balls seem to be sized about right to go through the full choke of my Model 29. Your mileage may vary.

I do use an overshot wad secured with carpenter's glue. I've had no real issues with the glue, but have also used the shells without any glue. I never attempted to glue an overshot wad in place with a muzzle-loading shotgun, so did not see a real need for it in a single-shot cartridge gun. If you are using a repeater of some kind, your mileage may vary. Unglued shells seem to travel well in the pocket of my travel vest or wool cloak. No real reason you could not use a couple overshot wads I suppose if you want more security.

My shot loads have been few so far as I have had to improvise cushion wads from things like cotton balls/Excelsior as the 14 gauge wads were out of stock last time I had any money to spend on such things. What charges I did do were 1 ounce loads and patterned very well using a black powder equivalent load of Hodgdon 777.

I am using a Lee Universal Depriming Rod for decapping the shells and a light mallet with a dowel rod for the other steps. I have some plans for fabricating items to be used with an RCBS Rock Chucker for this procedure, but I need access to a lathe unless I can make do with a drill press... entirely possible.

I understand all the cautionary commentary on substituting components, but that is what you must do when developing loads from scratch. I suspect that if you are careful, work up slowly and reference published data from plastic shell data, you should not have any real issues with brass shells as they do not depend upon the overall length of the component stack for proper crimping. Should go without saying to avoid using something like a Sweet 16 for experimental loads with brass shells. There are all kinds of break-action single-shots, bolt-actions and tough heavy doubles like the Savage 311 series guns that would likely be good candidates for experimental loads.

As time and my budget permits, I will work up some loads and post my results.

[longbow]

I tend to agree with you in that the brass hulls have a larger volume than any plastic or paper hull so pressure should be lower for any given set of components listed in a relaoding manual with the exception of the brass hull replacing plastic or paper.I cannot see why that would not be true.

However, having said that I would be reluctant to use any load data over 6000 to 7000 PSI to test.

I know all the warnings and I have passed many warnings on to other on this site as I have had one blow that was quite unexpected... I guess that goes without saying! The incident was likely the result of a couple of pressure increasing "minor" changes I made to a book load recipe. It was a short hull and a slug load so 2 or 2 1/2" hull with no cushion leg (that tends to cause a pressure increase) and a soft hollow base slug with filler in the cavity. The top about 1/3 of the circumfernece of the chamber blew off all the way to the forcing cone. This was a "Remington" import break action single shot.

I believe the issues were the removal of the cushion leg causing an increase in pressure at ignition and the filled slug which obturated to fill the chamber at the case mouth then ran into the forcing cone (lead streaks in what was left of the chamber from case mouth into the bore).

So there is at least one concern if loading brass hulls with card wads... if a recipe calls for a cushion leg wad then removal of the cushion leg will cause a spike in pressure at ignition. If all card wad column i suspect there should be significant gas leakage compared to using a plastic gas seal. Does that compensate for loss of the cushion leg? Not sure. I think reduction of the powder charge by 5% to 10% would take care of the issue but of course that is a guess.

Using load recipes for all card/fiber wad column would be a good place to start. Thoise seem to be few and far between though... at least so far as I have been able to find. I have a couple of old manuals like the Alcan manual mentioned above but most of the powders are now obsolete so even with fiber load data if the powders aren't available the recipes aren't much good.

It certainly would be nice to see some pressure tested data for brass hulls using smokeless powder! I wonder if we could talk someone with a pressure trace system into pressure testing a few loads with commonly used and available powders? If everyone pitched in for supplies it would be only time required to load and shoot by the "operator". Piezo or strain gauge systems would be the best.

Longbow

[brokeasajoke]

Here is my magtech brass 410 venture thus far
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...rass-410-today

[offshore44]

Is RSI / Pressure Trace II still available? Can you still get sensors?

[JFoster48386]

Attachment 186426
I also have an old Alcan manual,but that file exceeds forum limits.PM with e-mail if your interested.

Does that Alcan manual have brass hull data? And for .410 by chance?

Jon.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Here's an Idea? Why don't you find out what the pressure is on the Magtech Black Powder loads, and try to stay around that with a Smokeless Load?

I am NOT in the camp of follow every "Recipe" to the letter and never deviate. However I am loading shot shells on the Lower End (Trap Loads and similar< 10,000psi)

If the Magtech cases can't take 10,000 psi I wouldn't mess with them at all, since any Plastic Hull can take way more than that. Factory 1 oz slug loads at 1600 fps are well above 10,000 psi. You can see this in the load tables in the BPI Slug Loading book and Lyman Shotgun Manual.

Randy

[rbuck351]

I started loading shot shells about 1962. The manual I had didn't show many loads with a certain hull, primer or wad. Basically it had powder and shot quantities. It did say if you used plastic cup wads to reduce powder by 10%. So I have never followed the strict parameters that the newer manuals. I pick a shot charge I want with the recommended powder charge and use what ever hull and wad that comes out at the correct shot height for a good crimp.

I have never used magtech brass cases but have used 444 Marlin, 303 Brit and some 300 Win mag cases that I made for the 410. For powder I use either 2400 or 296/110. So far so good. I don't like the 303 cases very well but they do work. The 300 mag cases will easily hold 3/4 oz. The 3/4 oz loads will pattern with #9s at 20yds on paper plates that a sparrow won't get through.