Which powder?

[Scriptoe]

Hello folks, as you can see, I'm new to the forum but not new to shooting, handloading or casting. I would like some advice on a particular handload. I will give all the info I can so you can better help me.

The gun is a 7 1/2 inch single action .357 magnum. The bullet is Lyman's 358665 which is 158g semi-wadcutter with one lube groove and one crimp groove. I use homemade lube of 1/2 parifin and 1/2 toilet wax ring. I pan lube all the bullets and inspect each one before loading to make sure they are well lubed. The load is 7g of hp-38 in 38 special brass with cci small pistol primer. I know that's not a 38 load but I don't and won't own a 38 special handgun nor will I let anyone shoot my handloads besides myself. I recieved over 5000 rounds of 38 special brass free and I load it up to .357 power to shoot through my .357 guns.

Here's the problem, I only mold with 100 percent pure soft lead. Because I have probably 500 pounds of it and to me trying to tinker with alloying it up takes all the fun out of casting. I also don't use a sizer, I just load them the way they cast.
Anyway, I'm getting a ton of lead fouling. It is noticable even after one cylinder worth of shooting.

This load works fine in the wife's 2 1/2 inch barreled wheel gun but it leaves my bore looking like a sewer pipe. What I want to do is slow down. I'm going to start at the recommended minimum load for 38 special this week using the Hodgdon HP-38 and see how that goes.

My question is, what powder would you recommend for my particular situation? Do I need to go slower burning as in accurate #9 or Hodgdon H110? Or do I need to go quicker, toward the red dot end of the scale? Or do I just need to stick with HP-38 and load light?

The only purpose in the entire existance of this perticular revolver/bullet combination is to kill pop cans in the back yard. It's not going to ever be used for punching paper, hunting or self defense.

Thanks again guys, great site.

[MT Gianni]

It appears to me to be a combination of too soft for your application and lube failure.

[BABore]

That is a smokin load out of a 38 case. I'm using 5.0 to 5.5 grains of WW231 (same as HP-38) in a 357 mag case. It runs over 1,000 fps out of my 8 3/8" bbl'd, 686. I to am running close to pure lead.

I would be dropping the powder charge down to 3.5 to 4.0 grains in a 38 case. I would also try some better lube. Parafin just plain sucks for a lube. Not a bad lube stiffener, but not a lube. TB wax rings are not much better. Equal parts of a heavy, yellow vaseline (industrial type), parafine, and beeswax is not to bad. NRA 50/50 would also work. Anything that is soft and has some real lube in it should work. Even the Lee LA lube is worth a try.

[Scriptoe]

The bullets are going to stay soft, I have no flexability on that. I know I am screaming these loads out the barrel at at least 1300 to 1500fps and I know that's way too fast for soft soft lead. I know that slowing them down will do the trick. I don't think the lube is the problem. The fouling is the entire length of the barrel and I get a nice puff of lube smoke every shot.

Only question is, which powder is best to push a 158g slug down to say 500-600fps?

I know I can download HP-38 enough to fix the problem. Is there a better powder for super light 38 loads? One that will slow me down to walking speed and still get enough accuracy to kill a pop can. That's all I want to know.

[Scriptoe]

Good advise on the lube. I'm going to work on some different lube recipes I've seen on this site and others. Even pushing a dry lead slug down the barrel isn't going to perminitely hurt the gun, and the fouling is no big deal to clean. So experimenting with lubes surely can't hurt.

I have some commercial lube here from tamarack. It's half beeswax and half alox. I'll try it on the next batch.

If I have to start buying too much stuff I'll just buy ammo. The whole point for me is to load up some can killers with minimal fuss expense.

Don't get me wrong, I also handload for several rifle calibers and I don't play around with them. When it comes to my .223 I weigh every case, every bullet and every powder charge. I use redding competition dies and the best brass and bullets you can get. I can tear a ragged hole all day with my Remington 700 and my favorite handload.

The cast revolver loading is just for fun and I want to keep it fun or like I said, I'll just go buy ammo and forget it.

What section should I look under here for good lube recipes?

[sheepdog]

7g of HP-38 in a 38 case? Spec is 17k, you're up in 41k range. If this wasn't a 357 they'd be calling you "Lefty" right about now.

That bullet with about 2.2 grains of Red dot in a 38 case will get you down into the low 600s. I would bet you its a good bit more accurate than that barrel burner you been using. Best of all you're brass will fail from being sized long before you make it flow.

[higgins]

All you need to do is use loads from component company manuals and websites as published. A .357 load in a .38 spl. case results in a load with much higher pressure than the same components loaded in a .357 case. Bullet hardness and lube are the least of your concerns. Start from scratch with a light load of your chosen powder in accordance with Hodgdon or other published data, and if you must load .357 magnum-level loads put them in .357 cases.

[Scriptoe]

I always pay close attention to fired brass. I have had no signs of overpressure cases at all. And with the soft lead I'm not scared about barrel wear.

As a matter of fact the muzzle flash, sound and recoil is well lower than commercial Buffalo Bore ammo with the same bullet weight.

I don't believe the difference in length of the 38 case and the 357 case are enough to raise pressures to an overpressure situation. As proven by ease of case extraction, no cratered primer strikes, no swolen primer pockets, no head marks of any kind or other signs of pressure.

The load was originally concocted by me for the old lady to carry in her purse in her 2.5 inch gp100 357mag. 7 grains of HP38 falls well within the listed limits of a 158g cast bullet in a .357 case. Yes, these are 38 cases but like I said, I don't think the 8th inch of length makes that much of a difference. And if it does, the spent cases sure don't show it.

It's just an anti-carjacker load that I have around 100 rounds of already loaded up. Not a beer can killer, which is what I'm looing for.

2.2g of Red dot? That sounds like a good starting plan.

Is it better to use slower or faster powders for reduced loads?

[MT Gianni]

Use fast powders such as Bullseye, Reddot, Accurate #2 for good starting loads with pure. On line manuals are full of starting loads. I'm not sure 50-50 Alox Beeswax will get you what you want, there is the smoke and stink some find objectionable.

[Larry Gibson]

Load them over 3.5 gr Bullseye. If they still lead then your lube is suspect and a change there would be adviseable.

Larry Gibson

[Trifocals]

TRAIL BOSS. What you want to accomplish is exactly what Trail Boss powder was made for....a bulky powder for reduced loads. A favorite of the Cowboy Action shooters. Lead should be O.K. for your bullets in the 500 - 700 fps range. I'd bet your present lube will hold up fine at that velocity range.

[kelbro]

I ran some TrailBoss in a 357 this weekend with some cast 158gr SWC. Decent accuracy. Easy on the wrist (2" Taurus).

[GSSP]

Something to think about. I was reading some literature the other day that came with Veral Smith's LBT Bore Lapping instructions. Under the section for "Loading Lap Bullets", he states "just enought power to get them out of the barrel reliably, which dictates tiny charges of fast pistol powder. Bullseye or 700x are the best because they ignite easy. Use 1.5 to 2.5 gr for straightwall handgun carts". He goes on to say "start at the upper limits and work down if the bore leads.....". "Make absolutely certain EVERY bullet exits the bore before firing again". Keep a wooden dowel handy to knock out stuck bullets. Once you find the powder charge which will reliably drive bullets out of the bore, your leading should hopefully stop.

Hope this helps.

Alan

[rmaster14145]

nor will I let anyone shoot my handloads besides myself. .

HMMM then you said...."The load was originally concocted by me for the old lady to carry in her purse ...."



rm

[swheeler]

First off I would try the HP38 powder I had on hand, start at the listed 3.1 grains for a 158 lead bullet in 38 special , second I would try Lee liquid alox for tumble lubing them. If you get no leading at this loading I would start working up to the published max load of 3.7 grains looking for accuracy or lack there of and leading. Your gun will tell you what it likes.

Out of the same manual 5.2 grains of hp38 is max plus P 158 loading at 20.4K cup.

[TCLouis]

Lets look at this

You have problems

You are relatively new at this

People with experience give advice

You tell them they must all be wrong because . . .

Good luck

[JustSomeGuy]

I am late to this thread... But Scriptoe:

Pure lead has a brinell hardness of about 6, as opposed to say, wheel weights which are around 10-12, and linotype about 22. There is a formula for determining the pressure level you can shoot a particular lead bullet at without leading. You simply multiply the brinell number (in your case 6) by a constant which is 1422 to give you the maximum yield strength of that bullet in psi. Thus, 1422 X 6 = 8532 psi. Your loads were what... in the 40K range? The bullet was a mass of goo going down the barrel! So Ok, you realized this and want to work up loads based on the 38 Special case with fast burning powders going about 600fps or so. If you stay about 5% to 10% below the yield strength of the bullet with whatever powder you decide on in psi you should be OK. Many reloading manuals still give pressure readings in CUP, or copper units of pressure. In some cases the CUP reading is about 5% to 20% higher than the actual PSI pressure in the barrel, but this is ok in that it will give you a margin for error in your favor when figuring out the pressure limit of the slug you are using. The best accuracy and clean barrel will be found quickly if you adhere to the basic formula above when using lead bullets.

And really... The 1/8" difference DOES make a tremendous difference in pressure in the two cartridges at the high end. Also, 38 cases are NOT as rugged as 357 cases and the only thing saving your hand at this point is the very soft lead bullet you have been shooting. At the pressures your load was generating, the lead bullet was becoming a molten glob at the hind end, that is, you exceeded the "yield strength" of the lead bullet at that pressure, generating a lot of "blow by" of the gas pressure and limiting the damage it could do to you. Had you been firing jacketed bullets in those cases at those pressures, results would surely have been different. Maybe not the first time, or even the 10th, but sometime... They fired out of your wife's revolver ok because of the short barrel not allowing for maximum pressure buildup with that powder. It was still building up pressure as the bullet was leaving the barrel, probably not exceeding, or at least not by much, the yield strength of the bullet you were using.

And I edited this to add one more thing... Few things in this world are "pure" including lead. It is possible, unless you mined and smelted the lead ore yourself, that it is a bit harder than the aforementioned 6 on the brinell hardness scale as tin and antimony are commonly found in the same ore fields or might be added by a smelter to make if flow better even in minute amounts. I say this as you will probably ultimately find that you can push the bullet a bit faster than the formula indicates without it leading and will look back at this and say "that formula is bunk!" Like all things, pick what you think is useful from the information offered, and try to remember how useful your fingers and hands have been in the past and try to preserve them.

[robertbank]

With the load you are using and the soft load bulets you are simply seeing the results of the bullets shearing through the barrel. Nothing to do with molten lead or lube or powder for that matter.

Pure lead bullets going that fast down your barrel are going to lead it up. Simple. Einsteins definition of insanity is "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result". Keep driving those bullets at that speed and you are going to have leading everytime.

You have choices to end the leading:

1. Reduce your powder charge to very light loads if you have no intention of hardening the bullets.

2. Use a proven bullet lube and there are lots available.

Otherwise enjoy cleaning out the barrel. I suggest chore boy 100% copper strands wrapped around an old copper cleaning brush. It will get the lead out with a few aggressive strokes.

Take Care

Bob

[StarMetal]

The guys are dead on about the lube and the load being hot. Gosh, if you would just get some wheelweights and mix them 50/50 with you lead you'd have a great alloy and it's really not that much bother to do. Get yourself some better lube, nearly anything will do commercially or since you like making your own make some Felix lube...recipe is on the forum.

Joe

[twotrees]

That ever shot some of the ( 1960's) Remington 357 loads ?? They were swaged dead soft lead boolits and a hot charge of powder.

12 rounds down the tube and you had the prettiest 30 cal revolver, you ever did want to see.

That load and my first Ruger Blackhawk were what got me started casting, in the first place.

Your overloading that dead soft lead, back it down and you'll get to where you want to be. 231/bullseye ect will get you there.

Yep, your wife will settle a carjackers hash with that load alright, but at 2 Ft I can think of easyer ones to fire out of a 2 1/2 gun.

Good Shooting,