Lee Factory Crimp die for Handgun Cartridges and Cast Bullets

[Tall]

Your posts don't make any sense.

All of the reloading companies make crimp dies.

Lee came up with the idea to make a crimp die that also has a carbide sizing ring in the mouth of the die. Sometimes when you crimp and seat at the same time, you make a slight bulge at the case mouth, and this post-sizing ring is supposed to iron that back out as you withdraw the case. But you only get this bulge if you seat and crimp in the same step. So the carbide ring doesn't fix that problem. Crimping in a separate step after seating fixed the problem. You can do that with any crimping die.

Even if it did fix this problem, the carbide ring is sized to work with nominally thick brass and jacketed bullets. A cast bullet that is at least 1 thou larger than jacketed and using typical thickness brass will make the cartridge too big for the FCD sizing ring. This will swage the bullet, just slightly. So your boolits is slightly smaller, AND you lose some neck tension after running it through the FCD.

The carbide ring is usually tight even on a jacketed bullet in order to do what it is theoretically supposed to. It usually touches and drags on the brass where the seated bullet passed through. There's no more room in there for a larger cast bullet.

The problem the carbide ring "fixes" is if you load unsized cast bullets, and some of them are too big for the ammo to fit in the chamber. Or maybe you have a handful of pickup cases that fit in all your guns using jacketed bullets, but they're a smidge too thick in the case mouth for one of your gun's chamber when loaded with cast bullets. If you use the FCD, the carbide ring makes the ammo fit in your chamber. But the bullet will setback with thumb pressure, now. And it's mixed in with all your good ammo and will pass the plunk test, chamber, and fire in your gun at w/e OAL it ends up at. And the undersized boolit may foul your barrel and tumble 20 yards out the muzzle.

Apparently you are making this judgement even though you have never owned, touched, or used the Lee FCD. I have on the other hand been using them for 35 or more years. Here is a video that is from 2015 so it mentions earlier Lee FCD's that do not have any carbide sizing ring. Also the one he calls "rifle" on the left in many of these videos is now being offered by Lee in many handgun calibers.

https://youtu.be/YWnw0sTBO8w

You need to understand reloading is not done if any of the brass is different length. Any brass that is different length needs to be trimmed to length prior to reloading.

[Tall]

This is a group of pictures I took today showing a typical Lee FCD in 38 WCF caliber. There is no carbide crimp ring. None.

[Tall]

This is a Missouri Bullet Co powder coated 200 grain LSWC. The main portion of the bullet stays at .401" diameter. The Lee FCD crimps the brass into the crimp groove. It does not in any way deform the lead.

[gloob]

That's the collet crimp FCD. This is how Lee always made the FCD for bottle neck rifle cartridges. I believe this style did not exist for straight walled pistol cartridges 35 years ago.

When I started reloading, they called them "pistol FCD" and "rifle FCD." Rifle = collet crimp, similar to how neck sizing dies work. Pistol = the Lee frankencombo of a post sizing ring plus a normal taper/roll crimp die.

I saw a recent thread that Lee have started making collect FCD for straight walled cartridges, too. But as of last die sets I bought from LEE, the straight walled pistol 4 die sets come with the frankensizer die.

There's no controversy of using a collet crimp FCD for cast bullets. That poll would have been over and done with long ago. There's no issue. The controversy is over the normal pistol FCD that has the carbide ring. The reason this post is 20 pages long, is because the title specifically asks about the "pistol FCD". Today, that needs some clarification, because collet style pistol FCD are now available for purchase. And people will still jump into the thread talking about the rifle FCD.

My post covers the use of the normal pistol franken-FCD with cast bullets. Useless and potentially dangerous.

I have and use collect crimp FCD for bottleneck rifle cartridges. I still don't use it with cast bullets, though. I don't crimp my cast rifle bullets. Only do that for jacketed bullet with a cannelure. I know what FCD's are and how they work. You do, too. One of us doesn't know which FCD this thread is about.

[gloob]

When you read what the poll asks, knowing that it's asking specifically about the straight-wall pistol FCD that comes in every set of Lee Deluxe straight-wall pistol dies, and this is the style of FCD with the carbide ring of dubious value in it that doesn't play nice with oversize bullets, it's surprising which answer is winning on a forum with this one's name.

How many of these voters didn't read the "handgun" part of the question and realize what that meant. And how many are like Colt_45, who used the FCD simply because it was included in their set, and they wanted a separate crimp die, while not realizing there was a carbide sizing ring in the mouth and that there could be negative consequences to that?

Not knowing that there is a carbide resizing ring in the .45 ACP FCD, I have been using one for years on cast bullets (185 & 200 SWC). I just wanted a separate crimp station after seating. Prior to that the seat & crimp together would shave a sliver off the bullet.

Needless to say the separate crimp does work. Now I need to look into whether it is sizing down the bullets...

[Tall]

When you read what the poll asks, knowing that it's asking specifically about the straight-wall pistol FCD that comes in every set of Lee Deluxe straight-wall pistol dies, and this is the style of FCD with the carbide ring of dubious value in it that doesn't play nice with oversize bullets, it's surprising which answer is winning on a forum with this one's name.

How many of these voters didn't read the "handgun" part of the question and realize what that meant. And how many are like Colt_45, who used the FCD simply because it was included in their set, and they wanted a separate crimp die, while not realizing there was a carbide sizing ring in the mouth and that there could be negative consequences to that?

Well I certainly read and understood it. Handgun dies are handgun dies and FCD is FCD. CFCD is different. The CFDC dies have a carbide ring, FCD do not.

[Carrier]

All I did was knock the ring out. Problem solved if one is concerned about swaging cast bullets when crimping though I never did seem to have that issue. I bought the Lee collet die’s for handguns I load for but don’t really like them compared to the ones I knocked the rings out of.

[Tall]

The question asks you specifically: "Do you use the Lee factory Crimp Die when loading pistol cartridges withcast bullets"

It does not say anything about Carbide Factory Crimp Dies. Those are the only ones with a ring.

[gloob]

The question asks you specifically: "Do you use the Lee factory Crimp Die when loading pistol cartridges withcast bullets"

It does not say anything about Carbide Factory Crimp Dies. Those are the only ones with a ring.

Some of us believe the OP poll and most of the content of the thread is actually concerning the straight wall pistol "CFCD" die. Because that's what pistol FCD means to many people. And it's the only way the question is even worth asking! Why would a collet crimp die "swage your bullet?"

When the poll was started, was there even any non-carbide FCD for straight wall handgun calibers?

"Short Bottle Neck Collet Style FCD" on Lee's site covers the 357 SIG, 400 Corbon, etc. I guess those are aren't FCD's, either, though. They must be SBNCSFCD's!

The only pistol calibers I found under plain "FCD" are for 44 magnum and 45 Colt. I'm not even sure if these are collet-style crimp dies, or they're just listed wrong. The rest of the list is bottle necked rifle cartridges.

[Tall]

Why would a collet crimp die "swage your bullet?"

Indeed, the Carbide Factory Crimp dies are sized to work on the brass only. If they are somehow contacting the bullet you have other major problems. The question asked is ludicrous.

The older series of Lee Factory Crimp Dies was out long before this thread was started in 2011. The carbide ring was introduced maybe a couple years earlier in 2008?

Maybe you don't know how to navigate the Lee website, I do not know what your issue is.

[gloob]

Indeed, the Carbide Factory Crimp dies are sized to work on the brass only. If they are somehow contacting the bullet you have other major problems. The question asked is ludicrous.

The older series of Lee Factory Crimp Dies was out long before this thread was started in 2011. The carbide ring was introduced maybe a couple years earlier in 2008?

Maybe you don't know how to navigate the Lee website, I do not know what your issue is.

The carbide ring is sized to work the just the flared or bulged mouth of the case. But if you have seated a bullet that is larger than jaceketed, the brass around that bullet will be a larger OD, so it will no longer fit through the ring. The entire seated area of the bullet will be swaged. The case will also be sized a little, but it will spring back more than the bullet, and now you lost some to all of your neck tension.

If you took a minute to read the title of the thread and the some of the responses on the first couple pages, you'd see that the majority of people are discussing the CFCD, here. I have never heard of any concern using a collet/rifle FCD with cast bullets. Have you?

[Tall]

The carbide ring is sized to work the just the flared or bulged mouth of the case. But if you have seated a bullet that is larger than jaceketed, the brass around that bullet will be a larger OD, so it will no longer fit through the ring. The entire seated area of the bullet will be swaged. The case will also be sized a little, but it will spring back more than the bullet, and now you lost some to all of your neck tension.

If you took a minute to read the title of the thread and the some of the responses on the first couple pages, you'd see that the majority of people are discussing the CFCD, here. I have never heard of any concern using a collet/rifle FCD with cast bullets. Have you?

I did read all the responses and like you, they are complaining about a product they have never owned and never used.

[BJung]

My old friend years ago use to call the FCD the "fix-it" die. If your assembled cartridge didn't chamber, the "fix-it" die would take care of the problem.

Then, years later, I talked to a lead bullet seller named Dardas. He told me that the FCD would swage the bullet and you needed a cast bullet .001" larger than the bore. And so, I stopped using the FCD.

Recently I did a test using different brass. With my sized cast bullets, my 148wc seated well in Remington brass and grouped well. Winchester not so good. A mixed load of different headstamps worse. Crimp, worse for the 148wc but better with 150swc. PMC, big bulge and not hits on my target about 21 yds away. So, my suggestion is to avoid the brass with headstamps that bulge from your cast bullets and use those that group best with your load. As for the FCD, I haven't a 38 special load that groups best using it so far. And as for the other cartridges, its a TBA after future test loads.

[gloob]

Guy on YT mic'd the OD of his cast 45ACP before and after using a carbide FCD. On half his headstamps, there was no difference. On the others, the OD decreased by as much as 0.0008".

Neck tension is all over with at 1.5-2.0 thousandths. So at 0.0008, you have lost "half" your neck tension. And that's with a bullet only 1 thous over. In some calibers you might go up to 3 or more. Well, you lose all neck tension once you get to 2 over, already, assuming you had the same thickness variations of your own brass. Yes, you'd notice it when this round went in the die, if you use a single stage. If you're using it on a progressive, I'm not sure.

There is definitely a camp that sees this as an advantage. If it makes rounds that chamber tightly to plunk better, it's all good. That's the goal. Let's say you tested accuracy from a bench, and results were equal, even though some of those headstamps were harder to squeeze through the die.

Well what about neck tension? It might not matter if you only shoot a bolt gun or a revolver and you can put a heavy roll crimp on everything, and the ammo shoots exactly as good for you. But in case you care, when loading for a semiauto, the neck tension on the fatter ones was reduced.

And even if the ammo shoots the same and it doesn't setback (so far), here's an idea. If those shoot perfect, even then ones out of the thick cases, then you could size your bullets a thous smaller. See if you don't get the exact same accuracy. But now you get 100% of your neck tension in all of your reloads, and they all chamber, freely.

[Larry Gibson]

My old friend years ago used to call the FCD the "fix-it" die. If your assembled cartridge didn't chamber, the "fix-it" die would take care of the problem.

Exactly........

I load most all my pistol cartridges in a Dillon SDB or a 550B. With the SDB there are separate seating and crimping dies so the Lee CFCD or FCDs are not needed.....most of the time. I do load my top end magnum 357, 41 and 44s on a single stage. Never had a problem using the seater/crimp die with cast bullets in one operation but with jacketed bullets I do use two operations and simply adjust the die for each operation.

However, Occasionally I have run into chambering problems with 45 ACP and 9mm. Mostly because, for practice/blasting/plinking I use mostly mixed cases that vary in thickness. With 9mm and 45 ACPs for use in those few pistols that give chambering problems a trip through a Lee CFCD solves the problem. I have never [ let me repeat the that, NEVER] had any leading/accuracy/tumbling problems from doing so. I size my bullets for the 9mm at .357 and for the 45 ACP at .452. Years back I sized them at .356 and .451 and never had any issues. However, I bought into the "got to size larger" and the occasional chambering problems in some pistols, mostly those with tight "match" chambers, began.

Bottom line is I have and occasionally find a use for the Lee CFCD so I won't through them away or knock out the carbide ring. They work as intended. Those who use tools outside their intended use is where the trouble comes from.

[ACC]

One should not say that the FCD WILL size down my boolits, one should say the die COULD size 'em down.

Big difference.


Cat

I'm with you. I use an FCD for my 38's and 357's and I see no difference in accuracy so I don't think it's swaging down my bullets.

ACC

[robertbank]

I'm with you. I use an FCD for my 38's and 357's and I see no difference in accuracy so I don't think it's swaging down my bullets.

ACC

You likely wont see any affect on accuracy. If your case was bulged slightly from the seating of the bullet before you ran the case thru the FCD and the case is smooth afterwards it did swage your bullet down. Physics says so. Just like the barrel will swage your 9MM to .355 and your .357 bullet down to .357. Just measure the diameter before you load the bullet and afterward you have ran the bullet through the FCD. I have and it does.

Larry Gibson: Your experience differs somewhat from mine. Over the past 25 odd years I have loaded anywhere from 2,000 to 10,000 9MM cartridges per year. I shoot IDPA and a bit of IPSC and am able to practice a lot. In that time, after discovering that if I load 125 gr bullets 1.1" - 1.15" my cartridges would feed in all of my various 9MM pistols (8 makes/17 models).

I do admit I have had more than 1 failure to feed since setting my OAL but those were due to failing to level the lip of the case mouth. This mostly occurred after changing my powder die setting. I cannot remember ever having a case fail to feed because of the slight bulge you see when loading lead bullet sized .357. Interestingly I have not experienced any leading in Ballard style rifling barrels either since I began sizing my bullets .357. That occurred after a useful conversation with the late Felix Robins - RIP, some 25 years ago. I avoid leading in Walther's Polygonal rifling by applying a GC to my 356402 Lyman bullets.

Do I think the pistol caliber version of the FCD has a place in my loading room...nope. Do I think the rifle version of the FCD does absolutely.

For most shooters I believe sizing 9MM bullets .357 makes a lot of sense. Doing so guarantees a good gas seal which, all things being equal will negate gas cutting and the potential leading issue. It certainly wont affect accuracy negatively from my experience.

All this said there are really few absolutes when it comes to casting lead bullets. If you believe in the FCD use it. If you think it is a waste of money don't buy it. Either way you will still sleep well at night.

Confession: I do ensure the sights on my guns are set up so the bullet will end up where I am aiming by shooting from a bench and a rest. I try to eliminate me from the equation. Once I am satisfied the bullets are going where I am aiming, I'm good. I don't shoot bullseye shooting or long range shooting with this cartridge. I just want to know if I am aiming at an 8" circle out to 35 yards the bullet is capable of hitting the circle dead center. When it doesn't it is on me, which is the case mostly. I try to draw the line based upon practical accuracy relative to hitting the 8" circle. I have not found a significant difference in my ability to do so using any number of various pistols, pistol powders or brand of small pistol primers. I load what I got to make power factor for IDPA and IPSC and will die a happy man.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

I did read all the responses and like you, they are complaining about a product they have never owned and never used.

You know there is a difference between the collet die used in rifle cartridges and the carbide die Lee uses for pistol cartridges and how both work. From what I have read most folks who use the FCD for pistol cartridges seek to remove the slight bulge lead bullets induce when seated in the resized case. Tall I see you have been around here for a year. I am not sure you are in any place yet to suggest the original question was ludicrous. It wasn't. What I am pretty sure you really don't know what you are talking about, yet. I could be wrong but in this case I doubt it.

Take Care

Bob
FCD for most refers to both styles of crimping die. You would know if this if you were around when this thread started. You were not and you don't.