So I Bought This 92 Rossi in .45 Colt

[zack]

I would see what NOE has on hand in .454, excellent molds and less time. I have a couple of Accurate molds, which are fine too! hc18flyer

Just looked at Noes web site; they have that almost identical bullet in stock. 454-241-RF-AC3 About ten grains lighter.
Do Noe molds come with handles, or what handles fit their molds?

[Sandspider500]

They don't come with any. Lee handles will work or noe handles, which I think are customized lee handles. I have a pair of noe handles they are nice. I don't know if any other handles will work.

[zack]

[Pilgrim]

Can't take it any more !! About 15 years ago one of my close friends got me involved in Hunter Bench Rest shooting/competition. Virtually all of the rifles were .30 cal and all of us had wildcat chamberings of one kind or another. Another great deal of learning began !! However, the basic truth of that ( or any other precision shooting ) game equipment boiled down to three basic things 1) barrels - good barrels will give you good results. That means .0001" barrel variation or less. Generally lapped to remove any imperfections 2) bedding (self explanatory) and finally 3) bullets. Cast boolit shooting adds a few more complications (boolit size/sizing, lubes, and BHN). If you have a good barrel, good boolits (e.g sized properly, hard enough, decent lube), good bedding, and good loading and shooting skills good accuracy almost always follows. Shuz reaffirmed that fact in an earlier thread. In his rifle one boolit shot well and the boolit he wanted to use didn't. Much gnashing of teeth later the problem was isolated. His loading die was squeezing the boolit diameter down. Eliminated that problem and his accuracy problem went away. Don't make your accuracy problem too difficult to solve. If the rifle doesn't group anything worth a hoot, make sure your boolit is oversized, lubed well and not damaged when seating. If if doesn't shoot well the odds are you have a marginal barrel and all of the reloading tricks, powder variations, case preparations, etc. won't make any difference. I know it's blasphemy to do/say this on this site, but try a condum bullet in your rifle. If it still doesn't group odds are VERY high you have a bad barrel, or bad crown. Check the crown. If the crown is good, accept the accuracy you are getting or get a new barrel or a new/different rifle. I spent a number of years beating my head against the wall trying different bullets, different powders, different brass, ad nauseam trying to get my rifle to group. I finally figured out I was wasting my time and re-rifled the thing. Problem solved, every time. I've now rebarreled 2 Rugers and one Browning. Problems went away every time.

[Sandspider500]

So I loaded some mp 454-640 that have been powder coated and sized to .455 into some starline brass that had been fired from my Ruger Blackhawk with light loads.

I did not size the brass, just flared and seated the bullet. My Blackhawk cylinder will accept a .480 minus pin gauge but not a .481. It also has .4525 cylinder throats.



The loaded cartridge measured .47865 at its widest point, right where the bullet is seated. It will chamber in my Blackhawk. The bullet is crimped in the groove as well. It does have a small amount of .455 bearing surface outside the case. The brass measures 1.278 long.


You can see at the end of the case there will still be a portion of .05+ where a larger bullet would still chamber before it enters the throat. I also did this with a Lee 452-230tc-tl bullet that was also powder coated and sized .455, and it also chambers in the Blackhawk cylinder loaded to 1.6, it's crimped into the last tumble lube groove.


I normally size my bullets at .452 for my Blackhawk. My Rossi will gobble up a 310gr NEI swc with a fairly large .455 driving band hanging outside the case.

So you should have more options if you want to try and use the same ammo for both. I usually load them separately.

[zack]

Well, I'm back. That Noe mold I ordered came in and have been molding bullets. Also, I dumped the buckhorn sight that was on the rifle and installed a Williams 5D sight. I really like those Williams 5Ds.

The bead front sight that came on the Rossi was plenty tall. Got to playing around with it, I pulled off the bead with my fingernail and what was left was a nice .075 thousands blade. So, when I took it to the range to play with it I had to file off around .020. Also the Williams dos not interfere with the existing bolt safety. In fact, the Williams sight covers it up. That's good.

Not sorry I ordered the Noe mold. Not exactly what I was wanting but was something I could gt reasonably quick without having to wait for 6 weeks lead time for a mold from Accurate. I noticed that, with 30 to 1 lead/tin mix, the Noe mold throws a bullet that mic's out at around .452. I had to go to a lead/lino mix to get it to throw .455 bullets. That's ok though. A good mold and makes an accurate bullet. They stated right on their web-site that the alloy they used to come up with the dimensions was wheel weights.
Have been to the range twice, playing with the rifle and am getting around 1 1/4" groups at 25Y with 8.5 grains of Unique. It will get better I'm sure.

I may order another mold later. I really like the look of that Accurate 45-25C.
With this rifle, I am wanting to get away from hard lead, if I can.
SANDSPIDER, you mentioned I could order the molds from Accurate oversized....... I'm wondering with a mostly lead mix, how much oversize I would have to get the mold to throw a bullet large enough to be sized back down to .454?? .457 maybe?
Am enjoying the rifle.................

[35 Whelen]

WOW... if your barrel has a .454" groove diameter it is way over SAAMI standards for the 45 Colt.



I think I'd have to send it back.

35W

[Castaway]

Add another reason to why I’ll never buy another Rossi. Bought an M92 in 45 Colt years ago. Would not reliably feed a Lee 255 or a Hornady 250 or 300 XTP. Groups at 50 yards ranged from 5-15 inches. I loaded it low and slow and up to Ruger rated loads with a variety of bullets. Removed the forestock to apply wax and found the channel for the barrel and magazine tube had a gash between them. Called Rossi and they wouldn’t make it good because the warranty had expired. Tried to explain this wasn’t from abuse or fair wear and tear but a manufacturers issue. That was the last straw. Took it to a pawn shop and passed on my problem to someone else. There’s a fellow named Steve whose name keeps popping up on the internet that’s said to do remarkable things tuning the Rossi copy of the 92, slicking them up for the Cowboy action crowd. I maintain if the Rossi’s were any good, Steve wouldn’t have found this niche and excellent reputation making a shoddy product to the condition it should have been when it left the factory

[zack]

Wow Castaway, you sound bitter.

[lar45]

I think I would be unhappy also if my rifle shot 15" groups at 50yds.
I bought a Rem 600 in .308 once upon a time. I could not get it to shoot anything close to a group at 25 yards. I checked to make sure the bases were tight, then onto the rings, then tried a different scope. I did not try bedding the stock. I was in the navy at the time living on the ship and only had a storage locker off base to keep my stuff in... I took it to a gunshow and traded it off. The dealer assured me that he could make it shoot. I hope he did.

I have a SS Puma in 45Colt with the 24" octagon barrel and really like it. I read all of the articles about clipping the ejector springs and other tuning stuff, but my rifle was fine right out of the box. The only thing I don't like about it is the super slow twist rate. I'd like to be able to load some 350 or 405gn bullets for it. I mostly shoot 275s at 1500+ loaded with 4227. It will easily hit clay pidgeons at 75yds.



Here's a pic of my 480 Puma. I like it also.

[zack]

Good looking rifles Lars. Too bad on the 600 Rem. you had. They were/are one sweet rifle.
I've bee reading this forum for a long time. Have read horror stories on all of the manufacturers. Rossi, Marlin, Winchester, Henry. The twist, the finish, the function, the factory support, the on and on and................. Even some negative things on the Mikoru's and they're suppose to be the best. Oh well. Ya can't please everyone I guess. The disgruntled will always find a voice.

This is my second Rossi. I bought a 20" .357 Rossi back in the 80s and kept it for a while. I regret selling it, it was a shooter. Use to think I needed to sell one before I bought another one.
I've got 80s vintage Winchester Trapper in 30-30 also, this Rossi has a lot smoother action than the Winchester. And is about the same in accuracy.
On the .454 bore, I read all the back pages on Rossi lever actions here on Cast Boolits, (all 364 pages of them)
before I bought this one. Seems like some rifles come with standard .451 bores and some come with .454 bores. I don't know what their reasoning is. Seems like the guys that have 45 Casuls and 480 Pumas report their rifles have a more standard .451 bores. But, the guys that have a .45 colt can have either a .451 or a .454 bore. Worn equipment? Indifference? I don't know. They've been making these Rossi's down there for a long time and sell them not just here but local in South America also. Seems like the don't adhere to SAMMI specs for their own reasons. Believe I'll keep mine.

[Sandspider500]

WOW... if your barrel has a .454" groove diameter it is way over SAAMI standards for the 45 Colt.




I think I'd have to send it back.

35W

What is this?


A zero tolerance would be amazing.

[Sandspider500]

Zack, I'm pretty sure most mold makers will change the diameter to whatever you want. Last one I ordered was from arsenal molds and asked if it could be made to drop .454, and it does. It's been a while but accurate molds had a option of what alloy you were using so they could get it where you wanted. I think accurate will change any of the dims on the drawing for you.

I shot those loads I made up at 50 yards, I'm sure the rifle can shoot better but my eyes can't.


Lee 230 tc 9 shot 2.4" group
Description: 45 colt lee 230 tc
Notes 1: 1.6 oal 238gr 9.8gr up
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono (FT): 0.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight (gr): 238.000
Altitude (FT): 0.0
Temp: N/A
BP: N/A
Shots
# FPS FT-LBS PF
10 1282 868.70 305.12
9 1299 891.89 309.16
8 1289 878.21 306.78
7 1284 871.41 305.59
6 1268 849.83 301.78
5 1265 845.81 301.07
4 1266 847.15 301.31
3 1286 874.13 306.07
2 1274 857.89 303.21
1 1288 876.85 306.54
Average: 1280.10
StdDev: 11.37
Min: 1265
Max: 1299
Spread: 34
True MV: 1280.10
Shots/sec: 0.03


And the mp 454-640 hollow point. I think this one can shoot much better, some of the nose cavities weren't the greatest looking and probably should have been tossed back in the pot. Anyway if was a 10 shot 2.7" group. I did not Chrono these. I used the same powder charge of 9.8gr of ultimate pistol. Check out mp molds too.

[35 Whelen]

What is this?


A zero tolerance would be amazing.

That appears to be the throat diameter.

[Sandspider500]

Care to back that up with something other than your opinion? The drawing you sited is for a velocity and pressure test barrel for testing ammunition.

I'll leave this here for you too.


Hmm, why would it say minimum?
A Ruger Blackhawk 45 colt has an equal number of grooves and lands, 6. If it's groove is .450 and and they are .180 wide, which they are, what's the bore size?

[35 Whelen]

Care to back that up with something other than your opinion? The drawing you sited is for a velocity and pressure test barrel for testing ammunition.

I'll leave this here for you too.


Hmm, why would it say minimum?
A Ruger Blackhawk 45 colt has an equal number of grooves and lands, 6. If it's groove is .450 and and they are .180 wide, which they are, what's the bore size?

Didn't mean to wad up your shorts, I'm just relaying what I see from the SAAMI drawings. If you see something that I didn't, or if I misinterpeted something, just say so. No opinion here.

[zack]

35 Whelen, What Sandspider is trying to show you is:

You had stated that you would turn a rifle back in to the manufacturer because of it's .454 size because it was out of SAAMMI spec.
Sandspider has shown you that SAAMMI allow for a .450 groove size +a tolerance of .004 thou oversize which would bring the groove size up to .454.
Look at the SAAMI specs, not your crusher barrel specs.

.450
+.004
.454

[35 Whelen]

35 Whelen, What Sandspider is trying to show you is:

You had stated that you would turn a rifle back in to the manufacturer because of it's .454 size because it was out of SAAMMI spec.
Sandspider has shown you that SAAMMI allow for a .450 groove size +a tolerance of .004 thou oversize which would bring the groove size up to .454.
Look at the SAAMI specs, not your crusher barrel specs.

.450
+.004
.454

I guess I'm really slow. What I see, and as I said, I could very well be wrong, is chamber tolerances, that's what he circled in red. What am I missing???

[Sandspider500]

Ok.


This is the cartridge drawing and chamber drawing of a 40 s&w.

Notice the cartridge drawing has diameters on it, and it specifies body diameter, unless otherwise noted can be as much as .006 smaller. This could have also been written as "all diameters unless otherwise noted" and it would have meant the same thing. As the bullet and the rim already have a range, and would be in the unless otherwise noted category.

Now see the Chamber drawing, and ALL the diameters that are included on it. It has the throat and leade diameters, it has the bore and groove diameters, there's all kinds of diameters included on this chamber drawing.

Now, for ALL the diameters on this drawing, they can be up to .004 larger unless otherwise noted.



Now here's the test barrel drawing for the 40 s&w, this is what's to be used to pressure and velocity test ammunition, it's held to much tighter tolerances. See ALL the diameters on the test barrel drawing, it has the throat and leade diameter, it has the bore and groove diameter, it has the rear of the chamber diameter, it has the end of the chamber diameter, it has all kinds of diameters.


Now for every single diameter on this drawing, ALL of them, unless otherwise noted, it can be up to .0005 larger. Also notice the break line at the barrel and the note "Land and groove dimensions to be within tolerance throughout length of barrel". Everything on the test barrel, chamber included is much tighter than a saami spec one, to give consistent results when testing ammunition.

[35 Whelen]

Ok.


This is the cartridge drawing and chamber drawing of a 40 s&w.

Notice the cartridge drawing has diameters on it, and it specifies body diameter, unless otherwise noted can be as much as .006 smaller. This could have also been written as "all diameters unless otherwise noted" and it would have meant the same thing. As the bullet and the rim already have a range, and would be in the unless otherwise noted category.

Now see the Chamber drawing, and ALL the diameters that are included on it. It has the throat and leade diameters, it has the bore and groove diameters, there's all kinds of diameters included on this chamber drawing.

Now, for ALL the diameters on this drawing, they can be up to .004 larger unless otherwise noted.



Now here's the test barrel drawing for the 40 s&w, this is what's to be used to pressure and velocity test ammunition, it's held to much tighter tolerances. See ALL the diameters on the test barrel drawing, it has the throat and leade diameter, it has the bore and groove diameter, it has the rear of the chamber diameter, it has the end of the chamber diameter, it has all kinds of diameters.


Now for every single diameter on this drawing, ALL of them, unless otherwise noted, it can be up to .0005 larger. Also notice the break line at the barrel and the note "Land and groove dimensions to be within tolerance throughout length of barrel". Everything on the test barrel, chamber included is much tighter than a saami spec one, to give consistent results when testing ammunition.

OK, you can be right. I still would NOT accept a 45 Colt barrel with a .454" groove diameter. To each his own, huh?