Flint and frisson idea and or question?

[LAGS]

I have brass soldered a piece of old Skill Saw Blade to worn or soft Frizzens
That steel worked really well.
And coated both the frizzen and shaped metal with brass brazing rod , then use that brass coating as a sweat solder worked very well and never fell apart

[Boerrancher]

Question for you smart guys out there. As many of you know I have been fighting with that Traditions Mountain Rifle I bought new about 4 months back. I fixed the barrel walking issues with accuraglass and locking it in tight with some steep bends to the barrel wedges. The lock kept giving me fits. I ordered an L&R replacement lock from the log cabin shop. The one they sent was not even close. I called them and ended up sending photos of the lock they sent to me and the lady said, “we sent you the wrong lock. That is for an Investarms.” They had a Mountain Rifle their pulled the lock off of it and found the right replacement lock, and express mailed it to me with a return label for the wrong lock. When the new lock came it was not the right lock either. It looked right until I went to fit it and the screw spacing was over 1/4” too short and the lock plate was 1/4” too short. I sent photos and boxed everything back up. So much for that idea.

I was digging through my old parts and found a Frizzen for my CVA Hawken. It fit but not quite right but enough for me to try it and wow, it actually threw a massive amount of sparks and most of them went into the pan, unlike the two traditions frizzens that only threw a couple of sparks and those went onto the ground. I took the time and fit it to cover the pan properly so now I have a very functional lock. Problem solved with the Mountain Rifle. It is now both accurate and reliable.

Here is my question, or questions really. I noticed that it didn’t take long for the flint to gouge out some deep scars on the traditions Frizzens. This tells me the frizzens are soft, yet I can’t file them. The only way to redress them was with a diamond stone. This tells me they are hard. Are the frizzens too hard or are they too soft? Also since I have two of these I would like to fix them so they work. They are not worn enough to add new material to, without a tremendous amount of grinding. Besides the question of being too hard or two soft, could they be made out of a poor quality, low carbon steel, that is not even worth trying to fix? I have considered taking one and grinding 1/8 inch off the face, and silver soldering on a hacksaw blade and shaping it up, when I have time. Thoughts on this?

[LAGS]

On a cheap Flintlock that I had once. It wouldn’t spark consistently.
So I coated the frizzen with Dykem or Felt tipped pen.
Then I tested several flints to see that the stone was hitting in the correct spot and the frizzen was on a correct ark so the flint wasn’t just hitting in one tiny spot.
I changed the flint to a different sized flint that worked better and eventually ended up bending the hammer slightly to get that flint to work well.

[bedbugbilly]

Go back to the basics as already stated. What causes the spark is fine minute pieces of the frizzed being sheared (scraped_ off of the frizzed face, causing them to be super heated by the friction, causing the "pieces" of the frozen to appear as sparks - the geometry of the lock causing them to shower there into the pan to ignite the priming powder charge.

"Checkering" a friend face will not allow a clean geometric "scraping" of the frizzed face, but it would very likely dull the flint sharpness very quickly, requiring the edfe to be re-knapped.

Another subject it brings up is "bevel up" or "bevel down" as far as how the flint should be installed. The common sense answer is "which ever way works best in your particular rifle lock foe A. the best results in getting a good shower of sparks to ignite the powder in the pan, and B. getting the most sparks directed into the pan. Not all locks are created equal - a well designed lock with well designed geometry will throw a quick, fast shower of sparks for fast ignition - a poor quality/poorly designed lock will show short comings as far as sparking/spark direction an poor lock timing. Think Chambers, L & R, Davis locks compared to cheaply made, poor quality of some mass production rifles.

Also, in regards to smooth versus checkered. lined, etc. surface - think of a flint and steel for fire making. I always re-knapped my musket size flints I used in mt Fusil-de-Chasse and kept them in my fire-kit. Years ago, I bought a really nice fire steel from a blacksmith that had made it when I was down at Friendship - he had the metal treated perfectly for throwing a great shower of sparks. The 3" or so length of smooth surface allows a sharp flint to strike and peel off minute pieces of the steel resulting in a quick shower of hot sparks. Wen the hut a piece of char cloth in a bird's next of tow all it takes is a quick puff on the glow of the char cloth and it's instant flame - quicker than a kitchen match. If the surface of the steel was checkered, lined, etc. - you couldn't get the peeling/scraping action of the flint on the surface of the fire steel to create the friction/heat needed to get them hot enough (spark glow) to cause the char cloth to start to combust, but the rough checkered/lined surface would quickly dull the sharp knapped edge of the flint.

I still have my flintlock Fusil, but haven't shot it in a while due to age/health. I have always admired those that can snap gun flints, arrowheads, flint knives, etc. - it takes talent and skill foe sure.

[Boerrancher]

I still have my flintlock Fusil, but haven't shot it in a while due to age/health. I have always admired those that can snap gun flints, arrowheads, flint knives, etc. - it takes talent and skill foe sure.

Sorry to hear about your health. I have knapped my own gun flints, hunting broadheads, and knife blades for many years. I’ve made gunflints both ways like the Natives used to for their trade guns, and the European style. If I am in a hurry I will knock out a European style one and get 20-25 shots out of it. In my flint wallet and what I put in the gun for a long hunting trip are made like the Natives made them. I average a minimum of 25 shots off of an edge, then I just rotate it a 1/4 turn and get another 25 shots. By being able to shoot off of all 4 edges I get 100 shots or more from a flint. It gets better though. If I am careful enough in the knapping process and use a high quality material like Porcelain Novaculite, or a well heat treated high quality Georgetown flint, it is self sharpening. So after marking a complete 360° on all 4 edges, I can flip it over in the jaws and start over again, usually getting 20 shots per edge. By the time I shoot all 4 edges it is small enough to be touched up and reused in the next size smaller lock. My Trade Gun and Pennsylvania rifle have large locks, my 36 cal Hawken takes a Medium flint and my CVAs and Traditions take the smaller flints. By the time It is done in my CVA or Traditions, it is almost round like a marble.

[waksupi]

Here is my question, or questions really. I noticed that it didn’t take long for the flint to gouge out some deep scars on the traditions Frizzens. This tells me the frizzens are soft, yet I can’t file them. The only way to redress them was with a diamond stone. This tells me they are hard. Are the frizzens too hard or are they too soft? Also since I have two of these I would like to fix them so they work. They are not worn enough to add new material to, without a tremendous amount of grinding. Besides the question of being too hard or two soft, could they be made out of a poor quality, low carbon steel, that is not even worth trying to fix? I have considered taking one and grinding 1/8 inch off the face, and silver soldering on a hacksaw blade and shaping it up, when I have time. Thoughts on this?

It could be the native flints you are making. I'd got some of Rich Pierce's Burlington chert flints, and they put nasty divots in my Chamber's fowler frizzen in short order. They are easily seen and felt, so I keep those for emergency use only.
Although the divots are still there, the lock never fails to spark, and is very easy on my English flints. I did get a spare frizzen from Chambers, so if I ever manage to wear the old one out, I'm ready to go again. I've shot thousands of rounds from this gun, and suspect it will keep shooting.

Bedbugbilly, you remind me of an incident two years ago. We shoot year round, and one cold morning when I showed up, two pilgrims were kneeling by the fire pit, trying to get a shredded cardboard box lit with Bic lighters to start a fire. I stood and talked to another guy for a few minutes while watching the show. I got my flint and steel out, pulled some dry grass, and had the other side of their box on fire before they had got any flame going. It took a few moments for them to realize they were trying to set a fire on fire! I taught them how to do it a short time later. I can go from spark to flame in under five seconds usually.

[44_advocate]

someone once tried to solve the improved flintlock ignition.

one guy supposedly sold large chunks of the zippo lighter material.

another guy did a wierd lighter type insert.

another got in major trouble with the Federal Boys when he started selling strips of depleted uranium to tape to your frizzen

[Snippy45]

There are historical reasons for vertical ridges in a frizen to improve the sparking. However, correct material and hardness counts more.

[Bloodman14]

Asking out of PURE ignorance, does anyone have a good pic of a flint, and is the local "Ozark Mountains" 'flint' the same stuff? Locals refer to some of the local rocks as 'flint', which is why I ask. Starting to gain some curiosity in 'flinchlocks'!

[jhickdog]

English flint was preferred because of the hardness of the stone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HamGunner]

Asking out of PURE ignorance, does anyone have a good pic of a flint, and is the local "Ozark Mountains" 'flint' the same stuff? Locals refer to some of the local rocks as 'flint', which is why I ask. Starting to gain some curiosity in 'flinchlocks'!

Missouri has several types of flint, depending upon the region, but likely you have about the same type of flint in abundance in your area as I do just a few miles away in Ozark, Missouri. White Missouri flint is found in most places that have limestone. At one time not long ago, a fellow sold it commercially.

I have made some flints myself out of Missouri white flint stone that I picked up out of the limestone gravel in my driveway, although I am far from being any kind of real flint knapper.

It is supposedly a bit hard on one's frizzen, but it does spark a frizzen just fine. I have Amber French and Black English flints and I would recommend them for sure.

I also suggest that you jump right on into the fire. Nothing like seeing all that smoke come out of a nice primitive weapon that gives you it's own spark. And flinching or not, they sometimes shoot really well.

Below: Five shots
50 yards with my .45 cal. TC Hawken "flincher" with round ball loaded with 45 gr. of my homemade black powder. I was using Black English flints, but Missouri White flint would work just as well.

IMG_7840.jpg

[scattershot]

Asking out of PURE ignorance, does anyone have a good pic of a flint, and is the local "Ozark Mountains" 'flint' the same stuff? Locals refer to some of the local rocks as 'flint', which is why I ask. Starting to gain some curiosity in 'flinchlocks'!

Imhave some blck English flints in various sizes. If that’s what you need pics of, let me know nd I’ll post some up,here.

[Bloodman14]

scattershot, thanks, that would be great! Looking for comparison photos. HamGunner, thanks for the advice! I have LOTS of different colored 'flint' on my property that has some extremely sharp edges that should work. Found a few ideas on knapping here, will try some.

[HamGunner]

Lots of variety of flints displayed here.

Keep some band-aids handy.

https://www.etsy.com/search?q=flint%20stone&ref=auto-1

[country gent]

Most frizzens are case hardened and as they wear from use the face becomes softer. Kassenit, cherry red, or ground charcoal can be used to re case the surface. The first to use according to manufacturers instructions

The charcoal does a better job but is a harder longer process. you need a metal container the frizzen fits in with a inch or so all around
a layer or fine ground charcoal in bottom of container add frizzen and cover with charcoal add a small piece of paper to burn oxygen off when heating. seal cover on to container
Heat in fire to 1750 and let soak soak time determines how deep the case is. quench when soak time is reached
The kassenit and cherry red are about the same
heat frizzen to a bright red and coat with them or dip in. let cool heat to red hot and quench. Holding at red for a short time does make the layer deeper as does additional applications

[Ky ken]

I agree totally.

[scattershot]

scattershot, thanks, that would be great! Looking for comparison photos. HamGunner, thanks for the advice! I have LOTS of different colored 'flint' on my property that has some extremely sharp edges that should work. Found a few ideas on knapping here, will try some.

Here ya go. These are black English flints, knapped by Tom Fuller. For a while, these were considered the best you could get. May be some better, now, I haven’t shot a flinter in a long time. Anyway,as you can see, they are not strictly black, either.IMG_1377.jpg

[scattershot]

IMG_1376.jpg


A few more. The original pic was too big to upload. Hope this helps.

[Bloodman14]

scattershot, does the coloring of the flint indicate some specific chemistry? Is one color better than others? Flailing blindly in to new territory.

[scattershot]

scattershot, does the coloring of the flint indicate some specific chemistry? Is one color better than others? Flailing blindly in to new territory.

I never noticed any difference when I was shooting them.

FWIW, I made a flint from a rock I picked up once, and it worked, too. I only got a couple of shots out of it, but the point is, it worked.

I know it’s confusing at first, but just buy a flint or two and start shooting. Your rifle will tell you what it likes.