Dixie Tri-ball alternative powders?

[Barry54]

I read through the entire Dixie tri-ball revisited thread and saw mention of Lil’-Gun being slated to test. I’m not aware of the results being posted on this forum. Are they anywhere else? This is likely a viable alternative.

I saw there was a 3-1/2” recipe for Steel but it’s over pressure for 3” chambers.

Longshot seems like it could work. Probably more cold weather friendly than Blue-Dot and would take up a little less volume, and leave a little more material for a good roll crimp.

Has anyone tried variants other than Blue-Dot?

I’d be interested in sending them in to Precision Reloading for pressure testing if there was a good ballpark starting point.

[faustus]

Barry,

I played with the Dixie Tri-Ball load. At the time I was thinking about Longshot .... but the Dixie Tri-Ball load has a 2 1/3 oz payload. And at the time I could only find published data for Longshot and up to a 1 7/8 oz payload ... and that is where I stopped looking further at the time. I just used Blue Dot as a powder.

But I understand that the situation is different now ..... and with Blue Dot not being available any more.

Does anybody know if there are any published recipes out there with Longshot and a payload above 2 oz ??

[Barry54]

There has to be other powders that will work. Look at what’s close around Blue Dot and Longshot and Steel. Lil’Gun is close to H110/296. Those work in 410.

410 uses slower powder because it’s pushing a heavy payload vs it’s bore size. Something like N105 might be the ticket, but who knows? Software pressure prediction programs aren’t set up for shotguns. Pressure testing equipment is expensive and practically unavailable. We are stuck in the dark and at the mercy of just a handful of people who have the ability to test and help.

[faustus]

Barry, I just saw that the “Hodgdon Reloading Data Center” has published recipes for a 2 1/4oz load with Longshot.

https://hodgdonreloading.com/rldc/

Basically, 31 or 32 grains of Longshot in a 3 ½ shell will get you between 12000 and 13000 psi and a velocity of 1150 fps.

Now this data is for lead shot ….. so your Tri-Ball load should produce less pressure.

I would go down a couple of grains and give it a try … maybe 27 or 28 grains … and that load then should be around max pressure for a 3” hull …. 11500 psi …. or under.

[RMc]

Looking through my notes: Longshot was tested for use in 3" Tri-Ball and rejected due to pressure spikes.

[longbow]

I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner but oh well! Better late than never I guess.

Greg Sappington had a 1043 gr. slug mould made many years ago and posted info on Shotgunworld. He had loads pressure tested then shot them at the Linebaugh seminar. Here is a copy of his post:

Discussion starter · #24 · Apr 23, 2008

Okay Guys, here is the first round of pressure testing!

Loaded into a 3.00" Fiocchi Hull
Fiocchi 616 Primer
X12X Gas seal
.170" Waxed Nitro card
3/32" Cork
.125" Waxed Nitro card

The only variable was the powder charge:
48.0 Gr-938 FPS @ 8333PSI
50.0 Gr-986 FPS @ 9466PSI
52.0 Gr-1017 FPS @ 10,033PSI
54.0 Gr-1053 FPS @10,200PSI

The Powder was IMR 4227.
I can go higher, obviosly the pressure is low enough. Recoil will be heavy, but it was intended as a Bear protection load.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

Here is the link and you want post #24: https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads....132539/page-2

The title says 1143 grs. but I am sure it is 1043 grs. I tjhink the 1143 grs. is a typo.

Here is another copy of a post from Shooter's Forum mentioning both Greg's 880 gr. slug and his 1043 gr. slug.:

kaytod
Discussion starter
243 posts · Joined 2003

#1 · Jun 6, 2008
Here is a copy of the Penetration results of Greg Sappington's 880 grain 12 gauge and 1043 grain "Bear Buster" slugs.

Enjoy
Todd

Friends and Fellow shooters,
Here are the results from the Linebaugh seminar here in the midwest.
Greg was kind enough to send be three loadings with two different slugs.
The test gun was a stock Savage 210 bolt action fully rifled slug gun. (24 inch barrel) This gun with scope tips the scales at 8.2 pounds.
The loads were as follows;
880 grain slug at 1048 fps
880 grain slug at 1441 fps
1043 grain slug at 1080 fps
For those of you unfamilar with how testing is done at the midwest seminar, check out the post on Dixie Slugs Forum.
In short we do two tests, One test in water soaked newspaper, and the second test is water soaked newspaper with a full size beef femur placed approx 4" into the stack. Distances are fired are around 15 feet, as we want to insure we capture the bullets and be able to get a clear wound channel.
Many people who saw the size of the slugs wouldn't volunteer to help shoot them. In reality the recoil of the 1000 fps loads wern't unmanagable. The 1441's were not someting the the average shooter would want to attempt, especially in a Remington 870 with plastic stocks.
Here is the copy of what I sent to Greg regarding the results.


Greg,

Yes Sir, I did get to test them AND video them too. The vidoe camera is a new Digital model my good friend Joe V. brought. He is all things camera oriented. He's getting the video placed on DVD so we can copy and send out.

The three loads you sent were tested in a stock Savage 210 fully rifled slug gun, which weighs 8.2 lbs.

880 grain bullets were cronographed at 1048 ave for the 29gns longshot. and 1441fps average for the 62.8 grains of 4759.

The 1043 grain bullets were cronographed at 1080 fps average.

Recoil from either of the 1000 fps loads weren't bad, just a good big push. The 1400+ load was a bit more exuberant. I had corongraphed a buch of heavy rifle, 450/400 rifle 416 Rigby and 458 Win. as well as the slugs wearing just a light shirt. My wife notice that I was bleeding, come find out it was my shoulder. During the duration of my shooting session, the recoil split the skin open over my collar bone and I was oozing a bit. Still too much fun to stop though.

The 880 grainers at 1048 penetrated 36" average in plain paper and went 4"paper+bone+ 18" average with the bone emplaced. Our bones were the beef femurs and were better than the size of a fist. The bullets recovered in paper were undamaged and the ones thru bone lost a nose portion if the first driving band and at times sheared to the second driving band. Those that were to the second band weighed 550 grains on average and those that were less damaged I couldnt weigh on a 750 grain scale.

The 880's at 1441 fps penetrated 45" thru paper and 4paper+bone+26" additional paper. Bullets recovered in plain paper were undamaged and thou bone lost the nose portion to the middle driving band, weight was 540 grains average.

The 1043 grainers went thre 48" paper on average and 4"paper+bone+ an additional 36 inches of paper. Plain paper bullets were undamaged and the ones thru bone showed only peened nose portions back to the start of the truncacted cone. I took them to a friend that had a 1000 grain scale and he couldn't weigh them on it. They survived well.

These are very specialized slugs, for those shooters who can apply them they will be devistating. Recoil will the deciding factor.

Thank you for letting me shoot these and test them. This has been a wonderful experience. I thank you.


Todd Corder
Click to expand...I did have one brave soul want to shoot one of the 880's at 1441. I warned him not to let the gun get on him, and as I was about to finish with "and don't get up on that scope" his shot preceed my final sentence. He recieved a nice scope cut on the bridge of his nose. The bleeding stopped in 15 minutes or so, about the same time the black eye was starting to appear.

We did another batch of testing the next day and in order to give my shoulder a rest, My good friend Clay came with his PAST shoulder pad and shot more data so that I could video the shots.
I'm still waiting for the master DVD so that I can post it on the web or mail out copies. I'll do that as soon as I get the master.
Thanks to all, and especially Greg,
Todd Corder

Ed Hubel also used large doses of IMR4227 under some heavy slugs.

This should be a reasonable load for Tri-Ball I think. The three 0.600" balls weigh about 973 hrs. in pure lead so a little less in hard alloy but close to the 1043 grs. of Greg's slug. So IMR4227 shoukd be a good substitute powder for Tri-Ball loads.

Use at your own risk!

Longbow

[Barry54]

Longbow, thanks for sharing!

Going to the slower 4227 makes sense. I wonder if the powder will physically fit? The tri-ball payload takes up a lot of space.

I remember the 12 gauge FH thread. It was pages and pages long. Wasn’t he using modified 50 BMG brass? What ever happened to him? Did he have a catastrophic failure and vanish? Or get banned or something stupid?

[longbow]

Barry... yes, that is a good point, the IMR4227 is bulky so hull volume might be an issue. I am sure Greg's 1043 gr. slug is more compact that three 0.600" RB's. I have some 3" hulls and some IMR4227 so I should check to see if it all fits.

Ed also posted loads for typical weight slugs of around 600 grs. using IMR4227 in his very lengthy thread and that would likely work for a two ball load. I'll check on 3 ball load volume later. The memory of this popped into my head last night so thought port it.

Ed started out with typical slug loads then started pushing thme and developing higher pressure slug loads in shotgun hull but for strong actiions only. He went from there to the modified .50 BMG brass and other cartridges as he progressed. I think the .700 BHubel Express was his biggest cartridge.

His last post here was 2021 and apparently he passed away in 2021 at 81 years old. I didn't know he had passed away.

Here is the thread with his last post:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-Tester/page40

Lots of good info in there. I have not had the desire to go beyond relatively normal slug loads so his later developments didn't have too much practical interest for me but still interesting reading. He certainly pushed the boundaries!

Longbow

[longbow]

Okay then... I dug out the only 3" hulls I have which are Range pick up Federal 12 ga. 000 buck hulls with integral plastic basewad.

The range or IMR4227 that greg used was 48 to 54 grs. I weighed out 54 grs. then dumped it in the hull and put a gas seal cut off a Claybuster Winchester 1 oz. clone on top. I dropped in 3 0.600" RB's and the top ball came about even with the old top of roll crimp. I measured 0.280" between the ball and hull mouth as close as I could get with a vernier and straight edge on top of the hull mouth. Not sure if there would be enough huyll left for a fold crimp but there should be enough for a roll crimp with an overshot disk.

Then I dumped out the balls and pulled the gas seal then reduced powder charge to 48 grs. then reassembled. This time I got 0.375" between the top ball and hull mouth.

There is obviously no room for a cushiom leg. I did try a CSD wad which has a very short leg but even that was too long.

I'd say it is doable but you'd have to used some form of wrap to keep the balls centered and stacked so they don't wedge against the barrel walls. Not sure what that would do but James Gates said not to use soft balls I think so they don't deform and jam. Without pressure testing that would be a guess at best. If a wrap is used and the balls kept stacked vertically and centered I wouldn't worry about it.

Anyway, there it is a possible replacement for Blue Dot. It would be best to load up some rounds and send them off to Tom Armbrust for pressure testing.

Longbow

[Barry54]

Winchester 572

I recently noticed this powder coincides with Longshot on the MEC bushing chart on the Hodgdon website. I found it on a burn rate chart between IMR Blue and Alliant Blue Dot. And it’s in stock...

Have any of you used this powder for anything?