Ideal #4 in 38-45 Bullard?

[Fritz1255]

This is a new one for me, I picked it up at a gun show. It says 38-45 B, and the chamber dimensions are consistent with the 38-45 Bullard cartridge. The mold produces a 0.375" caliber flat nosed bullet that weighs about 200 grains. The sprue plate is missing, so the bullet that came with it has a blob of lead on the bottom, and I can't get an exact weight on the bullet itself. Why would Ideal make tools for such an obscure caliber?

[RickinTN]

Well, it wasn't obscure at one time. Way back someone had to make tools. Maybe a good light bullet for a 38-55?
Good Luck,
Rick

[jrmartin1964]

Your Ideal tool for reloading .38-45 Bullard would be a No.6, which was made for "rifle size" cartridges (think .45-70, .38-55, .32-40, etc.), whereas the No.4 tool was made for "revolver size" cartridges (think .45 Colt, .44 W.C.F., .44 Russian, etc.). The included bullet mould SHOULD cast a flat-nose, two groove bullet weighing approx. 190 grains, which was the standard weight for .38-45 Bullard.

Although the .38-45 Bullard did not appear in the list of available cartridges for the No.6 tool (or any other Ideal tool, for that matter), the proper bullet mould (0.373" diameter, weighing 190 grains) was in the list from Ideal Handbook No.1 (published in 1891) through Handbook No.16 (published in 1904). In 1898, under the recently introduced Ideal numbering system, this bullet was assigned No.373164 with the added note "Bullard rifles not made now." It is not listed in Handbook No.17 (published in 1906), nor in any of the subsequent Handbooks until Handbook No.28 (published in 1927, the 2nd edition published under Lyman ownership of Ideal). The last Handbook to list No.373164 was No.39 (published in 1953), although it is illustrated in Lyman's Handbook of Cast Bullets (1958) and Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook (1973). In later years, the bullet is listed as No.375164

Ideal No.373164, standard bullet for .38-45-190 Bullard,
as illustrated in the early Ideal handbooks:
Attachment 325941

Ideal tools for Bullard cartridges are not frequently seen.

Jim

[Fritz1255]

Wow, thanks for the information, very helpful. Yes, the bullet itself looks just like that, minus the writing of course. Is there any significant collector value in this tool? I would like to replace the missing sprue plate, but it looks like the threads for the retainer screw are buggered, and might need to be drilled and tapped for the next size up. This would make it a "bubba" tool, functional but non-original.

[Bent Ramrod]

You may need to increase the dimensions some, depending on the size of your mould blocks, but here's a drawing for a sprue plate I made for a #4 Ideal tool. I think the stock was 1/8" thick.



Your Ideal tool, in that caliber, is by no means a routine find. For a year or so, the "official" reloading outfit that the Bullard Company supplied with their rifles was the Brown Variform Reloading Tool. After that, till the end of production, they supplied reloading tools of their own manufacture, which were the usual collection of metal cylinders, bases and punches for bullet seating, depriming and repriming. The Ideal tool would likely have been made to order for somebody who had bought their rifle used and wanted to shoot it, some time after the demise of the Bullard Company.

The company's output of rifles, especially in their own proprietary calibers, was not high, so any reloading tool in a Bullard caliber would be very rare.

[Fritz1255]

Bent Ramrod, thanks much for the information! Any idea of the approximate value? Assume for that purpose that it was complete and in great shape (it is neither). I realize that "rare" does not necessarily mean valuable, and this is a very specialized item, but who knows?

[Bent Ramrod]

At gun shows, most of the Ideal tools I see that are lacking boxes, instruction sheets, perfect finishes, the powder scoops and depriming/belling punches, but having little or no rust and with the loading chambers and boolit moulds (if present) in good, usable shape, seem to move off tables with decreasing speed as the prices asked rise from $35 to $45 to $75, and cease to move at all by the time the price reaches $100.

Odd calibers make some difference, but it’s usually the big Sharps, Remington and Winchester calibers that command a premium.

There are well-heeled collectors out there that “just gotta have it,” but they’re often rarer than the collector’s item itself.

[Grizbear]

Yes, fritz. I have and shoot a Bullard 38-45. And I'd love to own that mold.

[Grizbear]

Come on Fritz, I'm that, "just gotta have it " guy.

[relics6165]

Fritz's last activity here was on 05-20-2024 at 02:05 PM. He's an infrequent poster, send him a PM and wait?

[Grizbear]

Thanks.