How to make Lee 405 cast bullets group better

[longbow]

I'll make a somewhat different suggestion...

You say that 350 and 405 gr. commercial bullets group well with both Unique and with 55 grs. of Swiss BP.

What is the hardness of the commercial bullets?

Why not cast the same hardness of lead using your Lee mould? If it works with the commercial bullets it should work with your Lee bullets. Of course you should size to same diameter as well and if your mould is the HB mould that may make a difference but with harder alloy the HB likely wouldn't expand much if any. I am assuming the commercial bullets are flat base?

Anyway, I'd start by trying an alloy of same hardness as the commercial bullets since they seem to work with both Unique and BP.

If that doesn't solve it then there are lots of good suggestions above.

Longbow

[TRG3]

Jim...I live in White County, just a few miles from the Wabash River. I graduated in the early 1960s, maybe even before you were born!

[TRG3]

I've got a 10"-12" bar of tin in the garage that I can snip off some and add it to my lead mix in the pot. I don't know the current hardness of the lead in the pot, but I'm assuming that it's on the soft side since I got it from a plumber friend. This should help to eliminate any wrinkles in the molded bullets. I mold from using a dipper and will make sure the mold is hot and that I don't cut off the sprue too quickly, as suggested by others. I've got some 2 parts deer tallow/2 parts beeswax/1 part olive oil hard lube that I used as a pan lube. By switching to a 1 part bear oil/1 part beeswax which produced a Vaseline-type lube, I went from a 2" to a 1" group at 50 yards. I'm going to add more olive oil to the latter lube which should soften it up. I'll apply it by hand to the bullets. Those adaptations will be incorporated as soon as the weather brings a cool spell. Upper 90s with matching humidity is typical for Southern Illinois in July and August, but from time to time we do get a day that's pleasant. Besides, August 1st ushers in tree squirrel season and I've got several CZ rimfires that are begging to check out the area hickory trees.

[Eddie Southgate]

Try 28-30 grains of Accurate 5744 . My Marlin likes the 30 grains with either the Magnus 405 grain hard cast ot the Noe 405 grain bullet .

If you figure out how to get 70 grains of black in your cases try lubing your bullets with SPG black powder lube if you can find some or make it if not. There are formulas for it on the internet if you look it up. The old Ideal black lube always worked well also. As far as the lead is concerned if it is pure plumbing lead I'd add something to harden it a bit at least , some type metal or clip on wheel weights . I'd do 2 pounds of wheel weights to 8 pounds of pure or or better yet save the soft for muzzle loaders and use straight wheel weights of the clip on type.

[TRG3]

Concerning getting 70 grains of BP in my 45-70 brass, that's not one of my goals. Instead, I'm interested in a low recoil load that will take a whitetail deer out to 100 yards, if necessary. I feel my 55 grains of Swiss 2F will do that via a CVA Scout with a 4X scope. I'm trying to duplicate my smear-on lube of 2 parts bear oil and one part beeswax by using deer tallow, bees wax, and olive oil. Interestingly, this combo continues to be a little on the grainy side even with adding more olive oil. I do have a buddy who is getting ready to head to Canada on a bear hunt call me to say that he'd discovered a couple of pounds of bear fat from last year's hunt frozen in the bottom of his deep freeze which he is giving me. I see some baked goods and lube in the future. I picked a couple of gallons of tame blackberries this afternoon, some of which have about 10 more minutes to go as a cobbler in the over. After that, my wife and I have two five-gallon buckets of Park's Whoppers tomatoes to work up and can. If you need a prolific big smooth red tomato, the Park's Whopper is hard to beat. Our favorite canning tomato, however, is the Roma-shaped Juliet, a smaller tasty one that we quarter and can. Later this evening, I'll be watching the Olympics. My favorite part of the summer events is the track and field during which I can reminisce about my high school days back in the late 1950s. Thanks for your input!

[redhawk0]

Not trying to overstep here...but...have you considered changing the boolit to the Lee 340gr. I've taken 2 deer with that boolit...one at 85 yards...and one at 35 yards. Both DRT. I also Powder Coat...so...no lube needed. I do however keep my velocity down in the 1200fps range. The 340gr is still overkill for a North America Whitetail. (if there is such a thing as overkill). Anyway...the shorter boolit would also allow you more powder in the case.

One other thing...it might be worth trying a F BP instead of FF. (or another brand) See if your groups tighten.

redhawk

[TRG3]

Redhawk...I certainly would try a 340-grain bullet as my rifle seems to shoot the Berry 350-grain bullet just fine; however, I've searched for the Lee 340 mold but have only found it via Ebay in .457 while my CVA Scout 45-70 has a .458 diameter bore. I've even though about removing the copper plating from the tip of the Berry bullet to make it a hunting bullet. After all, I've taken many deer with T/C slugs which would be similar. I learned long ago to trust my shot and follow up on deer that run off seemingly not hit. I plan to try powder coating as well as keeping the velocity around 1200fps. There's no need to absorb unnecessary recoil in order to shoot a slug through a deer when less powder will do the same thing, usually at distances under 100 yards. Considering another brand of black powder, I do have some Goex in both 2F and 3F that I could try, but more in Swiss. Thanks for your suggestions.

[Mike_M]

Many years ago, I cast some Lee 405gr. bullets to load .45-70 cartridges for my m/1867 rolling block rifle. I was having horrible accuracy, to the point of not hitting the target at 100 yards quite often. I was loading 70gr, by volume, of BP and had lubed my bullets with a beeswax/Vaseline mix. Sometimes when I fired, I could hear the bullet whizzing as it went downrange.

I had a muzzle loader friend with me that day and he suggested the lead I was using was too soft and the base of the bullet was being melted/deformed by the burning powder and causing the bullets to fly erratically. He suggested putting a wad between the powder charge and the bullet to protect the base and help compress the powder for better ignition.

I bought some Ox-Yoke pre-lubed Wonder Wads in .44/.45 caliber and put one in the case and pressed it to just below flush with the case mouth before seating the bullet. It compressed the powder quite nicely.

Night and day difference in accuracy. Hitting charcoal briquettes at 50 yards got too easy. We started looking for more challenging targets.

We found a pond out in the woods about 30-40 yards across loaded with moss... and... uh... little green frogs.

You said you're using 'soft' lead for your bullets. Try a felt wad over the powder. It might work like it did for me.

[TRG3]

Mike M...Thanks for your response. Years ago, when my 82-year-old eyes could still see the iron sights, I discovered that a wad of any kind between the black powder and the patched roundball or slug, would increase accuracy. While I never determined the reason why this was so, the accuracy increased and that was good enough for me. Now, when I load the 45-70 shells, I put a sturdy thin card between the black powder and the bullet. I've tried a lubed felt wool patch sandwiched between the over-powder wad and the base of the Lee 405 hollow base bullet, but that proved to be less accurate than lubing the bullet's grooves with homemade 2 parts bear grease/1 part beeswax lube. I got a 1" group at 50 yards off the bench with that effort, plenty good enough for deer hunting but I want to continue to vary loads, lubes, bullets, etc. to see if I can't improve that. I may be recoil sensitive, but 55 grains of Swiss 2F pushing the Lee 405 bullet kicks like it would be sufficient to me for deer hunting. The 350 grain bullets don't kick as much, and they seem to be just as accurate. I use 60 grains of Swiss 2F with the 350 grain bullets.

[Gobeyond]

Mike M...Thanks for your response. Years ago, when my 82-year-old eyes could still see the iron sights, I discovered that a wad of any kind between the black powder and the patched roundball or slug, would increase accuracy. While I never determined the reason why this was so, the accuracy increased and that was good enough for me. Now, when I load the 45-70 shells, I put a sturdy thin card between the black powder and the bullet. I've tried a lubed felt wool patch sandwiched between the over-powder wad and the base of the Lee 405 hollow base bullet, but that proved to be less accurate than lubing the bullet's grooves with homemade 2 parts bear grease/1 part beeswax lube. I got a 1" group at 50 yards off the bench with that effort, plenty good enough for deer hunting but I want to continue to vary loads, lubes, bullets, etc. to see if I can't improve that. I may be recoil sensitive, but 55 grains of Swiss 2F pushing the Lee 405 bullet kicks like it would be sufficient to me for deer hunting. The 350 grain bullets don't kick as much, and they seem to be just as accurate. I use 60 grains of Swiss 2F with the 350 grain bullets.

Sounds like you have a good load and lube at one inch. Have you tried it at 100 yds yet. You have something going on. Any dry powder rings in barrel that would tell you to change lube. If not you have a good one. I’m learning from your less than max load, all for less recoil, and your right not to compress Swiss powder that much. You have very narrow window parameters to accomplish a very specific goal. Hope you find it. But less than moa? I’m learning from ya bro.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Unless you are shooting long range, like Black Powder Silhouette or hunting bison, bullets heavier than 300-350 grains or so, just add recoil and use more lead. I have used the 300 grain RCBS flat nose gas check on a number or elk, works just fine with pass-thru's common. There are quite a few 300-350 grain bullet molds, just stick with the wide flat nose for killing stuff. Saves a lot of lead, 4 300 grainers versus 3 400 grainers and recoil is greatly reduced. A much flatter trajectory can also be attained if you want to speed things up, but that would add recoil. Recoil will always be a significant issue to shooting enjoyment. ALL the competition guys, no matter the shooting sport are always looking for ways to avoid recoil. For the 45-70, lighter bullets (300-350 grain) is a start.

[303carbine]

My main interest in the 45-70 is whitetail deer hunting since it is now legal in Illinois. At 50 yards, both 350 and 405 grain commercial bullets group into one inch or less with either 12 grains of Unique smokeless or 55 grains of Swiss 2F black powder. However, shooting the Lee 405 grain bullets with Swiss 2F I can only get 2" groups off the bench. (The maximum Swiss 2F load I can get in the Starline brass case is 55 grains with about 1/8" compression.) I'm using two parts deer tallow with two parts beeswax and one part olive oil as a lube. From my Lee 405 mold, my dial caliber shows the cast bullet base measures .460 and the rings .459. My CVA Scout is said to have a .458 barrel. The lead that I'm using came from a plumber friend and appears to be rather soft. Can you suggest any variables that I might try to get the Lee 405 grain bullet to shoot better in my rifle? Thanks.

I would try another powder and charge, I have the exact same CVA in 45-70, I shoot 45 grains of IMR 3031 under a 405 cast RCBS bullet. I get right around 1700 fps with this load and it shoots into the same hole at 75 yds.

[TRG3]

Unless you are shooting long range, like Black Powder Silhouette or hunting bison, bullets heavier than 300-350 grains or so, just add recoil and use more lead. I have used the 300 grain RCBS flat nose gas check on a number or elk, works just fine with pass-thru's common. There are quite a few 300-350 grain bullet molds, just stick with the wide flat nose for killing stuff. Saves a lot of lead, 4 300 grainers versus 3 400 grainers and recoil is greatly reduced. A much flatter trajectory can also be attained if you want to speed things up, but that would add recoil. Recoil will always be a significant issue to shooting enjoyment. ALL the competition guys, no matter the shooting sport are always looking for ways to avoid recoil. For the 45-70, lighter bullets (300-350 grain) is a start.

I tried to reply to your post, but it didn't "take", so I'll try to repeat myself. I like your way of thinking since I'm sure that recoil effects my accuracy and distracts from my enjoyment. My CVA Hunter .44 with a 240 grain bullet pushed with 20 grains of 2400 has little recoil and I'd like to duplicate that in my CVA Scout 45-70, hopefully with a 300 grain bullet. The .458 Berry 350 grain bullet shoots accurately in my rifle with 12 grains of Unique, but is not a hunting bullet; however, I believe that removing any copper plating from the meplat would be every bit as effective as the roundballs I've used to take many deer. What 300 grain 45-70 mold would you recommend? Where could I purchase one? Thanks.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I have the RCBS 45-300 FN mold that I bought very long ago (80's?), Midwayusa carries it, I am using a 6 cavity Lee - TLC-460-300-RF - purchased from RanchDog long ago but no longer available. Today I would buy the NOE 460-315-RF, a copy of the RCBS, at noebulletmolds.com, higher quality, less expensive, maybe easier to than the iron RCBS, because it is aluminum and very well made. NOE makes very high quality molds and very useful accessories like neck expanders and sizing dies. I have 5+ NOE molds and many of their expanders and sizers. My RCBS mold throws .459 bullets but they are advertised as .458,so... Accurate bullet molds, accuratemolds.com, has several 300 grain designs in their catalog and allow for custom diameter and design tweaks or completely new designs. Short recommendation - the NOE 460-315-RF.

[gumbo333]

So what am I missing? If the 350 gr plated Berry’s bullet for the 45/70 groups good in your rifle, why not hunt with it? I think the hardness is somewhere in the 15 neighborhood , velocity range maybe to 1900??? Seems like it should work well for whitetail. If shot in the 1200 - 1500 fps range won’t that kill a deer? And easy on the shoulder. I’ve killed several with a reduced 45/70 loading using several brands of 405 gr cast, lubed, PC or HyTec, don’t always know the hardness, shot in the 1000 fps range. Red Dot and Blue Dot generally more accurate than unique in my Henry. Some are very accurate. I don’t think deer can really tell how hard or soft a boolit is. Maybe my 78 yr old brain has gotten foggy.

[TRG3]

So what am I missing? If the 350 gr plated Berry’s bullet for the 45/70 groups good in your rifle, why not hunt with it? I think the hardness is somewhere in the 15 neighborhood , velocity range maybe to 1900??? Seems like it should work well for whitetail. If shot in the 1200 - 1500 fps range won’t that kill a deer? And easy on the shoulder. I’ve killed several with a reduced 45/70 loading using several brands of 405 gr cast, lubed, PC or HyTec, don’t always know the hardness, shot in the 1000 fps range. Red Dot and Blue Dot generally more accurate than unique in my Henry. Some are very accurate. I don’t think deer can really tell how hard or soft a boolit is. Maybe my 78 yr old brain has gotten foggy.

Gumbo...Thanks for your input. Your 78 year old brain seems to be working just fine as does my 82 year old one. If getting a deer were my only interest, then I'd not need to look any further than the 350 grain Berry bullet. It would be every bit as effective as the many roundballs I've used over the years with my flintlocks to bring home the venison. Being primarily a meat hunter, shooting a doe would be relatively easy on the first day of the Illinois firearm deer season with any bullet from any legal firearm; however, at this stage in my hunting experience, my interest centers around using a cast bullet with black powder in my 45-70 CVA Scout rifle as my first choice with other options there if I need them. Generally, I pass on does the first day while waiting for a nice buck. Does are in danger after that first day. I now hunt in a comfortable chair from the ground, thus eliminating any real concern of falling asleep and falling out of my stand. Somehow, a nap in the woods is one of the enjoyable things about deer hunting. A couple of deer will last my wife and I through the year, butchering everything into roasts to be cut into steaks later with jerky being made the weekend before Thanksgiving. Best of hunting this season.

[gumbo333]

Thanks TRG3. Easy to understand your wants. I’ve been hunting deer and turkeys for 28 yrs in a nice chair ( after a car wreck) in a ground blind made of deadfall. More than once I’ve had deer on the other side less than 2 feet from me. Poked a gun barrel thru so the little fellow or doe could sniff it. Been a real shortage of deer in my neighbor hood for 7 or 8 yrs. after disease wiped them out. Been seeing a couple this year. Naps are gooood. Good luck finding an accurate BP cast load. Something will fall together.

[wallacem]

I have been shooting 45-70 fr years with a cast 405 gr bullet over 36 grains of IMR3031. Shoots mild but will kll anything in north america. Groups great too. Wallacem

[MT Gianni]

If your group is 4" at 100 yards that is good enough for deer, even though we all strive for better. I would get a good smokeless load to shoot if you get that 100 yard shot and keep the bp for 50. Assuming a clean barrel they should both be accurate. Find one with the same sight setting.