Advice for the purchase of a 1918 manufacture 1911

[John22193]

Hello to all, a question on a 1911 that is at my local hardware/gun shop and if it's worth the money. Im not well versed in the 1911 market so I figured here would be a good place for an educated opinion. The shop was asking $1,600 and after asking if they could do better the price dropped to $1,400 out the door. The finish appears to have been removed by a previous owner, for what reason I'm not sure but I'd estimate less than 5% remains on the exterior of the gun. It also appears that the slide was used as a hammer slightly on the one side. The gun also comes with a 1918 dated holster in very good condition, leather is still very pliable and has no cracking at bend points. is also comes with a lanyard, a ww1 pistol belt a matching mag pouch with two mags inside. I was told by the shop owner that the two spare mags were from the 70's.

So if there is any advice you all have for buying 1911's of this vintage it would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance John

[MT Gianni]

Just my opinion, if I were buying one of that vintage it would be for the museum. Fast forward 50 years and you still have the same design at half the price. Jump forward to 2000 and the price remains the same and the condition improves a ton. Unless I was sure my grandfather or great-grandfather carried that particular gun in WWI, I would run away fast. My personal opinion as a non military collector is $1400 is still $1000 to high.

[Bigslug]

It looks to be a correct WWI piece from the pics. . .with the possible exception of the barrel. Difficult to say without seeing the markings. Format varies a little with the exact production date, but WWI Colt barrels should have an H and a P on the top of the chamber.

I've seen a lot of WWI examples with replacement barrels, and the 1970's mags may be a clue. Corrosive primers and the moist environment of Belgium/N.France - little wonder.

$1,400 after all taxes and fees. . .probably not unreasonable if all it's missing is the finish. Figure at least $2,000-$2,500+ for clean and original/correct from that period. Not gonna get a collector super excited, but it's your money.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Great post and subject...thanks!

Well, I'm a collector, although not of 1911s per se. I have a few, and I have one of which I'll attach a photo. Funny story....I was attending the Colorado School of Trades Gunsmithing School back in 1981-82 and met this young fellow from around Bishop, CA. That's on the east side of the Sierra Mountains, lots of boulders and pine trees. He found a case of dynamite in an old gold mine and as a teenager was enthralled in blowing up rocks and trees. He had this old 1911 when he found himself arrested and in front of a Judge, and the Judge made part of his atonement forfeiture of the pistol. The young guy was up on his history and convinced the Judge to let him keep the gun as it was an irreplaceable historical artifact that should be spared destruction. So, with a small fine and his pistol, the young guy ended up at CST, and when low on funds he sold the pistol which I bought. It was just like yours, without any finish remaining at all. Well, me being me, I re-blued it.

Now herein lies the lesson: When you refinish an artifact you reduce it's value by a substantial amount.
When your artifact is in poor condition it's value is far less than if it was in pristine condition. So, it kind of evens out as to value. Minus for being refinished, minus for poor condition, but plus for being refinished. Personally, and just me, I've always wanted my guns to look the best they can, so I went with the re-blue job.

The way this applies to your question is (1) are you willing to pay the price for what it is, (2) will you be happy with it's condition? There were many 1911s made during the WW I time period and the one you are looking at is just one of many. Prices range all the way up to $10k or higher with condition and rarity of a particular specimen like one in pristine condition that was made by Singer Sewing Machine Co., North American Arms Co., or in WW II Union Switch & Signal. It's a whole world of great enjoyment, but also quicksand for the new guy.

I think $1,400 is not unreasonable at today's prices. The same $1,400 will get you some nicer specimens, but not of that historical time period. If you want to build a historical collection, I'd buy it. If you want a serviceable 1911 in better condition I'd look around. The historical aspect is what this pistol has to offer.

I'll attach a couple more photos. The second is of a WW I vintage Colt that was confiscated because the serial no. had been removed, and was renumbered by a law enforcement agency back when things were permitted (1940s). The third photo is of a Colt .45 ACP that started life as a .38 Super. The giveaway is the style of the serial number's script, something I didn't know for years. There's a lot to know....(and I don't know a lot of it!).



DG

[45_Colt]

It isn't a shooter as the slide isn't heat treated. I don't recall exactly when (1925?), but the front of the slide along with the slide stop notch started to get heat treated. This prevented the front of the slide from cracking/breaking and the SS notch from being peened.

If you do get it, it would be as a collectors piece.

45_Colt

[sigep1764]

Offer 1200. I'm a bit different. I have a Winchester 1890. It was my grandfather's first gun, bought by my great grandfather. By the time it was passed to me, it had a cracked stock and 50% finish. It's gonna get passed down again, either to my niece or to my kid if I have one. It dates to 1917. I redid the wood and had the metal sent out to be reblued. Did I ruin the collectors value? It's still a hundred year old rifle. Now, it could last for another hundred years. Whats the value of it then? My vote is to preserve it, at a reasonable price. At some stage, every gun needs a refinish. They will all be refinished at some point. Do the job well, shoot it as it's intended use, and enjoy it. If that's not something you're interested in or see the value, just pass til something comes along that ticks the boxes. But I'd be proud to own that pistol and to reblue it.

[1Hawkeye]

I didn't see any u.s. property markings. Does the serial number start with a C if so it's a civilian gun and it's worth about half the asking price.

[John22193]

I did forget to mention that the barrel did appear to be a replacement. It is stamped with two “X” just in front of the link pin on the bottom of the barrel along with a Roman numeral number 3 which was added with an electric pencil or small Vibra peen just in front of the “X” ’s. So it’s technically not complete. And how often do come across 1911’s at this price range that are better for a similar price?

Would this weapon be a wise investment to resell in the future if a better one were to come into the collection at a future date? I heard the phrase the top always drags up the bottom does that stand true here as well?

[Bigslug]

It isn't a shooter as the slide isn't heat treated. I don't recall exactly when (1925?), but the front of the slide along with the slide stop notch started to get heat treated. This prevented the front of the slide from cracking/breaking and the SS notch from being peened.

If you do get it, it would be as a collectors piece.

45_Colt

That was in the 1940's and doesn't apply to the WWI guns. The goal was to speed wartime production with a softer steel that could be milled easier. After milling, the spot treating was applied view some electric process who's name eludes me at present. Initially, the front of the slides got the business, and the additional heat treat around the notches came in '43, as I recall.

[Bigslug]

I didn't see any u.s. property markings. Does the serial number start with a C if so it's a civilian gun and it's worth about half the asking price.

Look closer at the LEFT side of the dustcover on the WWI guns. It's in the OP's photo. That stamp got moved to the right side of the frame at some point in 1911-A1 production.

[John22193]

And Der Gerbirgsjager I enjoyed reading your story thank you. And the pictures you added to your post were certainly educational. The thought of re-blueing has me intrigued. Personally I don't look at this gun and have the desire to re-blue at this juncture, not that re-blueing is bad it's just not an option I consider when paying a decent sum of money for a gun. In all honesty having a rougher or in this case no finish makes it easier to enjoy and shoot because you're not worried about potential damage. But there is something to be said about having something nice to shoot on rare occasion that looks pristine.

[Tall]

I didn't see any u.s. property markings. Does the serial number start with a C if so it's a civilian gun and it's worth about half the asking price.

He pictured the serial number in the first post. There are no letters in it.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Yes--well, that's just me, like I said. Every time I buy a "truck gun" I end up making it look too good to use as a knock about. Guns all have stories....ahh, if they could only tell them!

Like Bigslug pointed out, the US Property mark was originally on the left side of the frame, as shown in your photos, moved to the right side of the frame following WW I. The original marking were not as deep as the later markings, and were easy to remove or even to wear off with lots of time in a holster that rubbed that spot. The 1911 in the 2nd photo also dates back to WW I and was confiscated by a CA Police Dept. from a drunk bartender in the late 1940s. The serial no. and the US Property markings had been filed off, and the police often were lacking in information that collectors would know. They believed that since it was obviously of WW I vintage and the serial no. filed off it had to have been stolen from the military. Using acid, they successfully raised all of the serial no.'s digits but one number which could have been an 8, 6, or 3. They ran all the possible combinations but could not turn up a theft report, and the military (all branches) denied that it was their pistol. That, plus the fact that it did not bear the US Property logo on the right side led them to believe that it had been sold commercially. After it came to me, using a strong magnifying glass, I could see that it did very faintly bear the very faint logo where it was supposed to be, on the left side, for that vintage pistol. Back in those days there were 3 law enforcement agencies in CA that were authorized by law to assign new serial numbers. As you can see, this one's number now starts with ASO for Alameda Sheriff's Office.

Since it's story time, the 3rd 1911 is a very fine Colt-made pistol with a 7,000 serial number. But it obviously a 1911A-1 version, so it was a great puzzle to me for several years. A 7 ,000 range 1911 would be a 1911, not an A-1, and it had to be made as an A-1 because of the finger relief cuts behind the trigger guard. Well, at the time I also had a pristine Remington Rand 1911A-1 and I found a footnote in a collector's book where a fellow was requesting information on them for a research project, specifically the mark on the barrel. I sent him my information and asked his opinion on the Colt. I was absolutely astounded when he asked me if I owned a copy of "Know Your 1911s", one of a series of "Know Your...." books for various firearms. Yes, I did own a copy. Well, take a look at the photo on the front of the book and you'll see that the pictured pistol has a number close to yours and in the same sort-of script style writing rather that the usual block letters. Sure enough...exactly the same. He continued, explaining that the photo on the cover of the book was a .38 Super and the early ones had all been numbered with that style of number, and that the .38 Super came about well after WW I. So the only remaining conclusion is that someone didn't like the Super and replaced the upper half with .45 ACP parts of approximately the same vintage, thus creating one of those puzzles that collectors love.

DG

[John22193]

I also was curious to know if there was anywhere else to look at on this vintage of weapon for potential damage due to over use and abuse from military life. I did read 45 colt and Bigslugs's remarks about then heat treat of the slide and the peening of the slide stop. On my father's 1911 he bought a shock buffer to prevent that. When I go to look at this pistol again tommorow is there an amount of peening that is acceptable? Or are their other areas to look for excessive wear and cracking? I will take more and better pictures and post them.

[John22193]

It is also neat to know the some of the history of the pistols you have because each one is unique and to think that these intriguing tales are only a sliver of the guns history since they were produced. I wish I knew more about the guns that I inherited from family members who have passed. But for better or worse they took it with them and now know body knows.

[Bigslug]

About the only "corner cutting" Colt did on the WWI guns was the finish - done at the Army's request. I've always found it an interesting. . .transposition, I guess would be the term. . .of sensibilities between then and now. The finish on the earliest 1912-production pistols made a Royal Blue Python look like a hyaena with mange in comparison. Not durable or practical in a military sense, but YOWZA!

It was certainly at least twice, possibly three times that the military directed Colt to "dial it back" and then "dial it back further", with the rough finish known as "Black Army" (often mistaken for Parkerizing) being the late WWI result. Doing it right and doing it pretty was how Colt was programmed at that time.

I therefore wouldn't worry about things like heat treatment. That said, I wouldn't make an irreplaceable piece of history my day-to-day shooter with full-tilt hardball either. They make Springfield, Tisas, Rock Island, etc... for getting that fix.

For mechanical inspection, expect a heavy trigger in the 6-8 pound range - likely with such aggressive engagement between the hammer and sear that if you look close, you'll maybe see a slight bit of almost "double action" where the hammer moves backward minutely out of full cock before falling to fire. This is normal - don't mess with it.

You also want to check any 1911 for a poor fit (or in this case wear) condition known as "scant safety". Clear the pistol, cock it, engage the thumb safety and pull the trigger hard. Then hold the pistol close to your ear and slowly pull the hammer back. If you hear a "click", you have scant safety. When fitted correctly and/or unworn, the thumb safety locks the sear firmly into engagement with the hammer. If that fitting surface gets taken down too far, the sear can raise out of the full-cock notch slightly during that test. The "click" is the sear falling back against the hammer when you take the friction off the notch. There are replicas of the early safeties available if you need to fit a new one. A restoration stud like Turnbull could probably weld the original back up an re-fit it, but that might be a deep rabbit hole to dive down.

Grip safety check: clear it, cock it, point it straight downward and press the trigger. Should get no hammer fall. Press grip safety and repeat (hammer should fall), then keep holding the trigger to the rear as you release the grip safety. When you release the trigger, the grip safety should pop back out into its "engaged" position.

Disconnector check: pull the slide back an eighth inch or so out of battery and try the trigger pull - hammer should not fall until the pistol is fully closed and locked up.

Hammer engagement: try pushing the cocked hammer forward with at least 12 pounds of force. It shouldn't go anywhere. Let the slide travel forward full speed with both the trigger held and then not held. Hammer should remain at full cock. A failure here MIGHT just mean the left two leaves of the combo sear spring (sear acutator on the left, trigger return/disconnector on the right) may need a little more aggressive forward bend, or it could mean somebody monkeyed with the hammer/sear engagement surfaces. If you have the heavy GI trigger I already mentioned, it probably ain't that.

A new recoil spring and firing pin spring would be warranted. The mainspring is enough of a beast you should be able to run it indefinitely unless there's an obvious reason to swap it out.

Another cool bit on the pistol in the OP photos - the A.E.F. acceptance eagle head stamp above the mag release.

[45_Colt]

That was in the 1940's and doesn't apply to the WWI guns. The goal was to speed wartime production with a softer steel that could be milled easier. After milling, the spot treating was applied view some electric process who's name eludes me at present. Initially, the front of the slides got the business, and the additional heat treat around the notches came in '43, as I recall.

That slide front and SS area isn't heat treated. If it where it would be obvious by a change in the color of the metal.

45_Colt

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Well, all good information and advice above. If I was buying the pistol it would not be my intent to shoot 500 rounds through it at the range every weekend. I couldn't resist trying it out though, and would have to shoot it occasionally. +P ammo would definitely be out. I might have to shoot regular hardball for a couple of magazines just to see how it was "back when", but thereafter I'd shoot cast SWC target loads. Or, cast RN ammo if the SWC wouldn't feed.

I've got mixed feelings about the Shok-Buffs. Maybe a year ago I took a 1911 out of my collection to fire and it jammed. I took it apart and the Shok-Buff which had been in it for perhaps 15 years had somehow deteriorated into something resembling blue coffee grounds and was all through the slide area. After a good cleaning the pistol then worked fine, but the one time that it didn't work sort of got me to thinking. When you need a gun to work it needs to work, so since it didn't come with a Shok-Buff from the manufacturer maybe one shouldn't try to fix what isn't broken. But since then I have to admit to having installed them in some pistols that I use more frequently than 15 years before shooting sessions.

As for how much peening and where, if I saw peening but no cracks (use a magnifying glass!) it wouldn't be a deal breaker, as you can install the Shok-Buff. But how much do you intend to shoot it? I have to think that the overall metallurgy improved from 1911, so if use is to be more than nostalgia I'd look for a newer gun for the money.

DG

[charlie b]

Another story. Got a 1911 from my father, which my grand-father originally obtained. Low serial number but it looked like a 1911A1. Part of the story got solved when I got the rest of the parts for the gun. Dad had stored them in a tin with the cleaning stuff. Inside the tin were all the original 1911 parts, hammer, trigger, rear sight, flat mainspring housing, etc. Dad had passed away a number of years before so I never got the story of the gun. I just know it was in a bedroom dresser drawer all the time I grew up. It now belongs to my son-in-law.

[John22193]

Good evening I was unable to get to the gun shop today due to an issue at work. I should be able to get there tomorrow no problem. And thank you Big slug for the checklist to go through when I handle the pistol tomorrow.

And DG my goal of shooting the pistol is probably every other month put one to four mags through it all being lighter cast loads. And the only time my father’s shock buffer ever did something anywhere near that kind of disintegration is after it was worn out from general use. Not sure if age, use, or certain oils cause different rates of failure for the buffers but fortunately they’re cheap to consistently replace.