My homemade Golden powder!

[LAGS]

I use those exact screen sizes to separate my powder.
It works well and does match most factor powder grain sizes.
But I only do BP right now.
But this thread is getting interesting for another kind of powder.

[2TM101]

Homemade powders, from weakest to strongest, near as I can determine:

Golden Powder
White (Starch) Powder
Crimson Powder
Screened Black Powder
Puck & Corned Black Powder
Pyrodex
BH 209 / 777
Sugar / Chlorate Powder

With Black Powder the quality of the Charcoal can make the final product vary quite a bit. TP black powder is more than Pyrodex, but I've also made stuff that was weaker than anything on this list.

Most ballistic testing I have seen puts Pyrodex a little ahead of commercial BP. I have never used 209 or 777 but I think those are a little more yet again

The Sugar / Chlorate powder is at the upper limit for muzzleloaders, and that with loads at half what they would be for BP. If it cycles a 9mm, which it does, its way more than BP. In fact I have heard that you can use it as a direct replacement for Unique.

I don't know where "KNSU" made with Potassium Nitrate instead of Potassium Chlorate fits on this list.

I would assume the homemade Smokeless powders discussed elsewhere on this board would be at the bottom of this list and too powerful for a muzzleloader.

[LAGS]

Thank you for listing all the homemade stuffs level of power.
One other thing that I would like to see for comparisons is how well it cleans up or the amount of dirt or junk that each kind of powder produces.
Plus how are they as far as promoting rust or damage to the metal or finishes of not cleaned the same day , or if a gun is left loaded for any period of time.

[indian joe]

Homemade powders, from weakest to strongest, near as I can determine:

Golden Powder
White (Starch) Powder
Crimson Powder
Screened Black Powder
Puck & Corned Black Powder
Pyrodex
BH 209 / 777
Sugar / Chlorate Powder

With Black Powder the quality of the Charcoal can make the final product vary quite a bit. TP black powder is more than Pyrodex, but I've also made stuff that was weaker than anything on this list.

Most ballistic testing I have seen puts Pyrodex a little ahead of commercial BP. I have never used 209 or 777 but I think those are a little more yet again

The Sugar / Chlorate powder is at the upper limit for muzzleloaders, and that with loads at half what they would be for BP. If it cycles a 9mm, which it does, its way more than BP. In fact I have heard that you can use it as a direct replacement for Unique.

I don't know where "KNSU" made with Potassium Nitrate instead of Potassium Chlorate fits on this list.

I would assume the homemade Smokeless powders discussed elsewhere on this board would be at the bottom of this list and too powerful for a muzzleloader.

just a comment - I dont see any difference between screened and corned blackpowder -- made from the same base meal and compared on a weight basis.......volume loaded ?certainly ...............

[ofitg]

I would assume the homemade Smokeless powders discussed elsewhere on this board would be at the bottom of this list and too powerful for a muzzleloader.

There is (or at least, there was?) a forum member, username "alexzxz"..... in August 2016 he indicated that he was experimenting with Ammonpulver in his Italian percussion revolver - see post #21 in this old thread -

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...t-Update/page2

Five months later he dropped off the radar, his final post was in January 2017. It makes me wonder if his experiments had an unhappy ending....

[Sandro_ventania]

I am surprised this thread hasn't been made a "Sticky".

I'm surprised too! I think you have to ask an administrator to do this. Could anyone do this?

[Sandro_ventania]

There is (or at least, there was?) a forum member, username "alexzxz"..... in August 2016 he indicated that he was experimenting with Ammonpulver in his Italian percussion revolver - see post #21 in this old thread -

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...t-Update/page2

Five months later he dropped off the radar, his final post was in January 2017. It makes me wonder if his experiments had an unhappy ending....

wow... Let's believe he changed sports!

[2TM101]

There is (or at least, there was?) a forum member, username "alexzxz"..... in August 2016 he indicated that he was experimenting with Ammonpulver in his Italian percussion revolver - see post #21 in this old thread

Ammonpulver is seriously last ditch losing the war stuff. No reason for anyone to be making that now, even in Ukraine.

[2TM101]

just a comment - I dont see any difference between screened and corned blackpowder -- made from the same base meal and compared on a weight basis.......volume loaded ?certainly ...............

This is a seriously first draft rough guess. I was hoping for input to improve it

Powders on this list are not evenly spaced by any means. Going by weight BP would be on one line. BH209 and 777 are not the same power level but I have never used either so I was hoping someone could clarify that and tell me which came first.

Sugar/Chlorate, Ammonpulver and the #7 Smokeless should be on their own list as they are NOT black powder substitutes, I might need to make two lists.

[ofitg]

I would note that “black powder” encompasses a wide range of firearm designs, and some designs are more robust than others. The 2001 Lyman Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual lists .50 caliber single-shot rifle loads reaching as high as 33,500 PSI pressure.

At the other end of the spectrum, the 1975 Lyman Black Powder Handbook does not include any percussion revolver loads exceeding 11,200 LUP pressure…. With the possible exception of the Ruger Old Army revolver, it’s probably not wise to subject any percussion revolver to pressures higher than 14,000 to 15,000 PSI.

[Sandro_ventania]

This is a seriously first draft rough guess. I was hoping for input to improve it

Powders on this list are not evenly spaced by any means. Going by weight BP would be on one line. BH209 and 777 are not the same power level but I have never used either so I was hoping someone could clarify that and tell me which came first.

Sugar/Chlorate, Ammonpulver and the #7 Smokeless should be on their own list as they are NOT black powder substitutes, I might need to make two lists.

I find this classification you make very funny... For me, what changes from one gunpowder to another is only the quantity and not the type. If I'm using golden gunpowder, it's one amount, if I'm using chlorate with sugar, I use another amount (less obviously). It would even be possible to use smokeless, as long as the load was small enough not to exceed the pressure limits. Or does anyone here believe that 1 grain of smokeless will blow up a muzzleloader? Okay...ok...ok...ok... it's to preserve the lives of irresponsible idiots. I have a friend who says that this is preventing natural selection and that's why they are reproducing everywhere...lol! Sorry...the last part was just a joke!

[2TM101]

I find this classification you make very funny... For me, what changes from one gunpowder to another is only the quantity and not the type. If I'm using golden gunpowder, it's one amount, if I'm using chlorate with sugar, I use another amount (less obviously). It would even be possible to use smokeless, as long as the load was small enough not to exceed the pressure limits. Or does anyone here believe that 1 grain of smokeless will blow up a muzzleloader? Okay...ok...ok...ok... it's to preserve the lives of irresponsible idiots. I have a friend who says that this is preventing natural selection and that's why they are reproducing everywhere...lol! Sorry...the last part was just a joke!

I have no way to tell what pressures these powders actually produce, Other then the gun blowing up meaning it was too much. Without knowing that this is pure guesswork. Even chronograph numbers are not giving me the full picture.

I could put enough 2-component golden powder in my .45 inline to make it work normally. I did, its why I don't have any golden powder now as it took 120 grains per shot.

What I would actually want to see is a by weight BP equivalent value worked out for all of these, where BP=1

So here, by weight, is my rough approximation. This has NOTHING to do with volume. I have personal experience only with the first five on this list, the remaining three are all guesses. 1.0 is standard black powder.

0.50 Golden Powder
0.60 White (Starch) Powder
0.80 Crimson Powder
0.85 "Grey" powder (Manganese)
1.00 Black Powder
1.05 Pyrodex
1.25 BH 209
1.25 777
2.00 Sugar / Chlorate Powder

Any of the first four could be made with Chlorate instead of Nitrate and would be significantly more powerful (and expensive) as they have no Sulfur.

Sugar/Chlorate supposedly can be loaded using tables for Unique. I have seen both it AND Unique used in cap& ball revolvers - with poor results. The pressure curve prevents you from being able to use enough and the resulting velocities are far less than what regular BP would give you.

So again, if anyone reading this thinks my by WEIGHT power equivalents are off, please update this.

[Sandro_ventania]

I have no way to tell what pressures these powders actually produce, Other then the gun blowing up meaning it was too much. Without knowing that this is pure guesswork. Even chronograph numbers are not giving me the full picture.

I could put enough 2-component golden powder in my .45 inline to make it work normally. I did, its why I don't have any golden powder now as it took 120 grains per shot.

What I would actually want to see is a by weight BP equivalent value worked out for all of these, where BP=1

So here, by weight, is my rough approximation. This has NOTHING to do with volume. I have personal experience only with the first five on this list, the remaining three are all guesses. 1.0 is standard black powder.

0.50 Golden Powder
0.60 White (Starch) Powder
0.80 Crimson Powder
0.85 "Grey" powder (Manganese)
1.00 Black Powder
1.05 Pyrodex
1.25 BH 209
1.25 777
2.00 Sugar / Chlorate Powder

Any of the first four could be made with Chlorate instead of Nitrate and would be significantly more powerful (and expensive) as they have no Sulfur.

Sugar/Chlorate supposedly can be loaded using tables for Unique. I have seen both it AND Unique used in cap& ball revolvers - with poor results. The pressure curve prevents you from being able to use enough and the resulting velocities are far less than what regular BP would give you.

So again, if anyone reading this thinks my by WEIGHT power equivalents are off, please update this.

This table is very interesting and it would be good if there were more tests, so we could have more reliable numbers. I say my GP is not half of my BP. my tests here left it close to 0.70 or 0.80. Crimson is almost as good as BP. But I say again, the idea of the table is very good and useful. With it we could develop loads, with any of these powders.

[2TM101]

My apologies to everyone who has been enthusiastic about this stuff. If you still are don't read this.

After months of playing around with this stuff, I'm going to stop. I will use up the ascorbic acid I bought and continue to make Crimson according to the original formula until that runs out, but that will be it.

Homemade screened Black Powder is better than any of this stuff, and ball milled/pucked powder can be as good as commercial. Both are cheaper to make, as well.

Golden Powder - Far too weak to be useful. In a one shot muzzleloader it takes 200% of a black powder load to work, and Crimson is less than 4% different. No reason to make this.

White (Starch) Powder = Garbage. It doesn't ignite. I loaded one chamber of my .36 Navy with this and it would not go off, ultimately I put the entire cylinder in my lead pot, and that in a cage, to melt the lead ball out (the nipples do not come out of this thing and I don't have a screw). By the time the starch powder went off with a weak pop the ball was already melting.

Crimson Powder - I'll use up the materials I have but thats it. Its no easier to make than screened BP but more expensive and less potent. Still, out of all the alternate powder s I tried, this was the best.

"Grey" powder (Manganese) - Never made this, but manganese dioxide is expensive and too much in a mixture makes it unsafe.

Sugar / Chlorate Powder = Unsafe and corrosive. This is not a propellant, it is an explosive. In small enough quantities you can get a semiauto to cycle with this but the bullet is being so damaged in the process of firing you won't hit anything.

Also anything with chlorates, or for that matter Perchlorate, will leave Chlorate salts in your gun and it will corrode quickly.

If something is going to stop you from shooting, its going to be primers, not powder. Brass can be reused many times, we can all make bullets or we would not be on this board, and the one component that would stop you from making black powder is also in all of these alternate formulas. You will always be able to get Sulfur, and make Charcoal. If you can't get Potassium Nitrate you cant make Golden, Crimson or Grey powder either.

Experimenting was fun, but none of these alternatives are better, cheaper or easier to make than actual black powder.

I did a LOT of experimentation, but thats my conclusion.

[Sandro_ventania]

My apologies to everyone who has been enthusiastic about this stuff. If you still are don't read this.

After months of playing around with this stuff, I'm going to stop. I will use up the ascorbic acid I bought and continue to make Crimson according to the original formula until that runs out, but that will be it.

Homemade screened Black Powder is better than any of this stuff, and ball milled/pucked powder can be as good as commercial. Both are cheaper to make, as well.

Golden Powder - Far too weak to be useful. In a one shot muzzleloader it takes 200% of a black powder load to work, and Crimson is less than 4% different. No reason to make this.

White (Starch) Powder = Garbage. It doesn't ignite. I loaded one chamber of my .36 Navy with this and it would not go off, ultimately I put the entire cylinder in my lead pot, and that in a cage, to melt the lead ball out (the nipples do not come out of this thing and I don't have a screw). By the time the starch powder went off with a weak pop the ball was already melting.

Crimson Powder - I'll use up the materials I have but thats it. Its no easier to make than screened BP but more expensive and less potent. Still, out of all the alternate powder s I tried, this was the best.

"Grey" powder (Manganese) - Never made this, but manganese dioxide is expensive and too much in a mixture makes it unsafe.

Sugar / Chlorate Powder = Unsafe and corrosive. This is not a propellant, it is an explosive. In small enough quantities you can get a semiauto to cycle with this but the bullet is being so damaged in the process of firing you won't hit anything.

Also anything with chlorates, or for that matter Perchlorate, will leave Chlorate salts in your gun and it will corrode quickly.

If something is going to stop you from shooting, its going to be primers, not powder. Brass can be reused many times, we can all make bullets or we would not be on this board, and the one component that would stop you from making black powder is also in all of these alternate formulas. You will always be able to get Sulfur, and make Charcoal. If you can't get Potassium Nitrate you cant make Golden, Crimson or Grey powder either.

Experimenting was fun, but none of these alternatives are better, cheaper or easier to make than actual black powder.

I did a LOT of experimentation, but thats my conclusion.

2TM101...your comments are very welcome and sensible. But they are only based on power, right? If someone is looking for other characteristics, perhaps the other powders would be more interesting. Golden or crimson powder, they are less corrosive than BP, cleaner than BP and can use waxes and lubricants used in smokeless powder... this is not possible with BP. And it's also easier to make than BP, you don't need a ball mill that will be left on for at least 12 hours! You won't need to make charcoal. All you need is one pan and you can make the powder in 15 minutes. So, it really depends on what you are looking for. I do all 3, Golden, crimson and BP... I really like doing BP, but the dirtiness of it bothers me sometimes, so I use Golden powder and I'm happy.

[barrabruce]

I loaded some 30-30 with 3.4 grns of shotgun powder and the rest golden powder as a filler and pushed 115 grn paperpatched bullets.
The groups were a little vertical stringy as I didn’t weigh the golden powder but the velocity was a lot better and a big cloud of white smoke lingered for several seconds before it cleared to see the target again.
Non existent recoil and nice visible effect.
Might up the smokeless a little.
One primer failed to fire so I pulled the bullet and tipped the case contents in a new primed case.
So golden and smokeless on top.
It sounded duller but shot significantly higher. More fouling in the case thou.
All good this end.
I will use what I have made up.
I can have some fun and make smoke and not dislocate my shoulder.
Ha

[Sandro_ventania]

I loaded some 30-30 with 3.4 grns of shotgun powder and the rest golden powder as a filler and pushed 115 grn paperpatched bullets.
The groups were a little vertical stringy as I didn’t weigh the golden powder but the velocity was a lot better and a big cloud of white smoke lingered for several seconds before it cleared to see the target again.
Non existent recoil and nice visible effect.
Might up the smokeless a little.
One primer failed to fire so I pulled the bullet and tipped the case contents in a new primed case.
So golden and smokeless on top.
It sounded duller but shot significantly higher. More fouling in the case thou.
All good this end.
I will use what I have made up.
I can have some fun and make smoke and not dislocate my shoulder.
Ha

That channel that makes BP with toilet paper, he did several tests with these duplex loads and he discovered that using PB or GP in our case, first and putting smokeless last, generates more speed. His chronograph confirmed it.

[a.squibload]

If you only shooting muzzleloaders you are home free first try - well done!
I used alcohol / water mix to dampen it at the start but I reckon I make better powder with just straight water - I also add a little dextrin to hold grain structure better. Other than that pretty much same procedure as you describe - and yeah its easy!! We use this screened powder in all front loaders including cap pistols.

Thanks for the encouragement!
I added 3% dextrin to my latest BP batch, the grains/granules are harder & don't turn to dust so easy.
The extent of my testing: it goes POW instead of FOOMP.
I might start using the same screen to get the dust out. Will save dust for next batch.

My previous batches had no dextrin, I figured the granules are so fragile I threw 'em in the ball mill.
Added dextrin. After 3 hours it all looks like fine powder, will run a while longer before screening.

((Saw a vid about making dextrin in a frying pan, works fine, don't have to heat up the oven.))


I started re-reading this thread and figured I didn't cook the GP long enough, tried again tonight.
Threw the 2 previous batches together, added an appropriate amount of charcoal (one batch had none), and some water.
Cooked to the "fudge" stage, sticky mess. Spread out on wax paper. Some of it was already dry, a little crunchy.
It's drying in the garage. I lit a chunk of it, went pretty fast considering it was probably not completely dry.

It is good to have an alternative to BP, and possibly fuel for certain cartridges.
I'm soaking some 45 Colt brass right now, they got a red residue from the GP test. Maybe waited too long to clean them.
Thanks again for all the info.

PS: Just thought as I watched and stirred: if the mix is simmering (bubbles rising),
can we assume it got well above 150°F ? So are we just drying out the water after that point?
If you have time (that's all I have!) couldn't you avoid the Danger Zone as it approaches dryness by
dumping it out? Would take longer to dry without heat but...

[Sandro_ventania]

Thanks for the encouragement!
I added 3% dextrin to my latest BP batch, the grains/granules are harder & don't turn to dust so easy.
The extent of my testing: it goes POW instead of FOOMP.
I might start using the same screen to get the dust out. Will save dust for next batch.

My previous batches had no dextrin, I figured the granules are so fragile I threw 'em in the ball mill.
Added dextrin. After 3 hours it all looks like fine powder, will run a while longer before screening.

((Saw a vid about making dextrin in a frying pan, works fine, don't have to heat up the oven.))


I started re-reading this thread and figured I didn't cook the GP long enough, tried again tonight.
Threw the 2 previous batches together, added an appropriate amount of charcoal (one batch had none), and some water.
Cooked to the "fudge" stage, sticky mess. Spread out on wax paper. Some of it was already dry, a little crunchy.
It's drying in the garage. I lit a chunk of it, went pretty fast considering it was probably not completely dry.

It is good to have an alternative to BP, and possibly fuel for certain cartridges.
I'm soaking some 45 Colt brass right now, they got a red residue from the GP test. Maybe waited too long to clean them.
Thanks again for all the info.

PS: Just thought as I watched and stirred: if the mix is simmering (bubbles rising),
can we assume it got well above 150°F ? So are we just drying out the water after that point?
If you have time (that's all I have!) couldn't you avoid the Danger Zone as it approaches dryness by
dumping it out? Would take longer to dry without heat but...

Friend, if you spread it out to cool and some of it is wet, then you didn't cook it long enough. The minimum temperature should be 250 degrees Fahrenheit. There has to be a color change.
When you cook it and put it out to cool, as soon as it cools down, everything has to be hard as a rock. 100% is hard and ready to use immediately, there is no need to wait for it to dry, as there will be no trace of water left. Don't be afraid to cook it, I've already cooked it until it turned dark brown and it was fine! I've measured it once and it was over 300 degrees fahrenheit and everything was fine. It is essential that all the water dries in the pan.

[a.squibload]

Didn't someone mention a magic temp. of 150°F?

Well it wasn't "wet", but was thick, sticky and spreadable. Some of it solidified immediately.
I wasn't going by color as it had the charcoal in it, looked like chocolate brownie mix.
It wasn't hard as a rock, the thin spread part was easy to break. I'll try shootin some, if it's not great maybe I'll
cook it some more, or just start a new batch. Still have half a ton of vitamin C.

I'll get the hang of this yet!