I'm using a MP mold 158 grain HP Keith bullet with a +p charge of HS 6, I get 985 FPS out of a 4" model 15.
I'm using a MP mold 158 grain HP Keith bullet with a +p charge of HS 6, I get 985 FPS out of a 4" model 15.
With expanding bullets, as you increase velocity the penetration goes down. This is because the extra velocity makes the bullet mushroom wider. There are some controlled expansion JHP designs that allow you to keep the same penetration as you increase velocity (usually because the jacket supports most of the mushroom, but allows the edges of the mushroom to break off as the mushroom gets too wide) but there are no HP bullets that I have seen were more velocity gets you more penetration. Hell, even non-expanding solids go down in penetration after 1600 fps.
I have seen HP failures where added velocity causes the mushroom to completely break off, leaving a half weight wadcutter. But if you mushroom is staying together then more speed means less penetration.
The loads I've worked up are +p according to Speer for their swaged bullets but according to the Lyman cast book they're all standard pressure loads. I am using cast, not sure if it makes a difference or not. From my experience loading 357 mag the Lyman book seems to be about right I usually top out a couple tenths below their max. For 357 I started off using their 158 data, the 158s in the Lyman book are actually RNFP not SWCs, the swc data are the 155 grain. The 158 rnfp data for 357 goes to 10.2 grains HS6, I never made it past 9.8 but the 155 grain SWC max is 9.7 HS6, once I realized this it made sense why I topped out where I did. My 357 load is now 9.5 grains HS6. With that being said my 38 loads aren't smoking hot, especially using HS6. If I am in the +p range I'm barely there but according to Lyman it's a standard pressure load.
I'm very familiar with the Lucky Gunner tests and I refer to them often when I need to pick out defense ammo, I read the Ed Harris article and while he makes some great points I guess I'm just not a fan of the full wadcutter. I can get the same or better results with a SWC and I can use them in 38 and 357.
I get what you're saying about the 206 but S&W, Taurus, pretty much anyone making a 38+p stamped revolver says the same exact thing. They're more durable than one would think, we're not talking about some pot metal Rohm. I don't plan to put some 38/44 Keith loads through it I just want to maximize performance. I plan to do some testing of my loads soon, if 6.2 grains gets the performance I'm looking for I'll probably stick with it.but if I see better results with 6.5 I don't think it's going to hurt anything. Here's a couple videos on the durability of the 206.
https://youtu.be/oEgA32A_NAk?si=zu-6jlfC_L_O07l1
https://youtu.be/q7YUbDpdJNQ?si=NyQ4T-x3vAZFzsls
I'm a big fan of the Buffalo Bore load, the Underwood version is good too but they're basically 38/44 loads. A member here on CB did some pressure testing and both Underwood and Buffalo Bore "38+p" tested at 28,000 PSI!!! They're not 357 pressure but that's like 38 special proof loads. I'd use em if I had to but I think those are better saved for 357 revolvers.
I have a few practice loads, 3.2 grains 231 under a 158 and 3.6 under a 105 are my mouse loads. I use the 4 grain 231 as a normal practice load. I don't plan to shoot a ton of my HS6 loads but I usually blow off any ammo I carry around every 6 months.
That's exactly why I asked what others have gotten with these powders! Hodgdon and their 7 and 10 inch test barrels really skew the results. I probably should have stated this in my original post but according to Lyman all of my loads are standard pressure. Not sure if it has to do cast vs swaged bullets, bullet profile or seating depth or what. I'm using a PC'd swc which has no lube groove so it does take up less space inside the case. Perhaps that's why I always top out just below the Lyman max for their SWC data?
I'm not using a hollowpoint, I'm using a full SWC. I was only stating that in my opinion the factory FBI loads don't get the penetration I'd like to see even when they don't expand probably because they're going too slow from a 2 inch barrel. If they don't expand they're basically a normal SWC, this had me thinking I needed to get my loads running faster to get more penetration.
I'm guessing it was probably Larry who did the pressure testing... I haven't seen that thread, but I'd be interested in reading through it. As for the pressure, in reality, most decently built revolvers should be capable of hanlding 28,000psi, that's really not that much pressure. Heck, 9mm Luger is 36k PSI. Granted there are older guns that probably can't handle this. But I suspect that most can. Especially my SP-101 in 38spl. That gun is offered in 357mag with no changes but a slightly larger cylinder and cylinder cutout in the frame. I completely trust it with 38-44 loads, though I do not shoot them through it. A bit heavier of a gun than, for example, my Taurus 85. That gun would at best be very painful to shoot those loads with. I guess like everything else, it all comes down to how much you're willing to push the envelope....
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1000 fps with Red Dot under a 158 in a snubby is getting into 357 magnum proof pressures, see below. Remember to subtract 50 fps for cylinder gap.
Code:Cartridge : .38 Special (SAAMI) Bullet : .358, 158, LEE TL358-158-SWC Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.450 inch = 36.83 mm Barrel Length : 3.7 inch = 94.0 mm Powder : Alliant RED DOT CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum recommended loads ! Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -40.0 47 3.00 710 177 13448 3694 100.0 0.709 -36.0 50 3.20 741 192 15018 3910 100.0 0.669 ! Near Maximum ! -32.0 53 3.40 770 208 16668 4127 100.0 0.633 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! -28.0 56 3.60 799 224 18395 4342 100.0 0.602 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! -24.0 59 3.80 826 240 20200 4558 100.0 0.574 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! -20.0 62 4.00 853 255 22082 4772 100.0 0.548 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! -16.0 65 4.20 879 271 24042 4986 100.0 0.525 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! -12.0 69 4.40 905 287 26080 5200 100.0 0.504 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! -08.0 72 4.60 930 303 28195 5412 100.0 0.485 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! -04.0 75 4.80 954 320 30389 5624 100.0 0.468 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +00.0 78 5.00 978 336 32662 5835 100.0 0.452 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +04.0 81 5.20 1002 352 35016 6046 100.0 0.437 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +08.0 84 5.40 1025 369 37451 6255 100.0 0.423 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +12.0 87 5.60 1048 385 39968 6464 100.0 0.410 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
The 1000 fps from a 2" revolver makes more sense at 28,000 psi than it does at normal +P.
And just in case someone has any doubts, DO NOT USE THESE LOADS. They are being posted only to show why not to use them. Note also that I removed the slowest burning powders (such as H110) from the list.
Code:Cartridge : .38 Special (SAAMI) Bullet : .358, 158, LEE TL358-158-SWC Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.450 inch = 36.83 mm Barrel Length : 3.7 inch = 94.0 mm C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations. USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON ! Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time % Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms --------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Alliant 2400 92.2 11.3 0.73 1078 71.1 28000 10385 0.470 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Accurate No.7 72.6 10.1 0.65 1077 81.4 28000 10187 0.470 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Shooters World Major Pistol 72.6 10.1 0.65 1077 81.4 28000 10187 0.470 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Alliant POWER PISTOL 74.7 7.6 0.50 1071 91.1 28000 9738 0.467 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Accurate 4100 95.9 12.8 0.83 1068 66.9 28000 9986 0.464 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Alliant BLUE DOT 93.2 9.8 0.63 1066 80.3 28000 9865 0.470 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Shooters World Heavy Pistol 80.1 11.1 0.72 1066 74.6 28000 9870 0.467 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Accurate No.9 80.9 11.1 0.72 1066 74.6 28000 9870 0.467 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Accurate TCM 80.6 10.7 0.70 1064 76.3 28000 9768 0.467 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Last edited by P Flados; 02-14-2024 at 12:15 PM.
Ok, sorry for the tangent, but this thread reminds me of the reasons why I like my Ruger 3" LCRx 38 SP +P so much.
I get ~75 fps from that extra inch.
I do not carry, but if I did, it would work. The gun is only 15.7 ounces (the RI M206 is 25.4 ounces). The LCRx is only 5 shots, but this helps make for a "slim" package.
The adjustable sights and the extra inch also make target shooting and/or plinking "more fun" IMO. I love the DA trigger pull. I like the SA option.
The gun price was very attractive when I bought it. I have fired bucket loads of ammo from it and it looks about like it did after the first 100. I have never needed to disassemble it for cleaning.
I think the simple solution would be to sell the 38 snubby and get a 2" 357 and shoot +p+ rounds through both of your 357s.
I've recently started loading the Lee TL358-148WC with 3.6 grains Red Dot in 38 Special and crimping in the 1st groove - i.e. leaving only one driving band exposed. Firing it in my Uberti Stallion single action with 5' barrel, I get 880 ft/sec. I'm thinking more and more that it's probably one of the best defensive loads in the 38 Special since that flat nose gives predictable performance whereas a Hollow Point at those velocities may or may not expand. Would probably be under 800 in a snub nose but you still get the benefit of that meplate.
My Youngest claims that my Taurus Model 85, 3" ported, is "Mean". He feels attacked every time he shoots it... Depending on the load...Exceptions are, the typical 2.8 gr Bullseye under a Wadcutter, 3.0gr Red Dot under 158SWC, and the lightest of all..3.4gr Nitro100NF, under a 125 RN, or RF... Mildest of all!!!!
I've read good reports about HS6 but use AA5 for my .38SP loads instead and have decent accuracy using it. I've reloaded an accurate .38 special load with 135gr Gold Dot and shot it through my 6" S&W Mod 66. It expanded well through 2- 1 gallon jugs of water. I cast, so my future bullet test will be cast 125 and 150gr LHP bullets into a drum of water. Reverse 38-148 HBWC test bullets shattered. Maybe a plastic bag with wet newspaper or magazines suspended in the drum of water and shot through would be a good medium to compare bullet performance to a Buffalo Bore, Gold Dot, or whatever you want to compare your load to..
That LCRx I mentioned previously has one downside. The light weight (less than a pound empty) does make for painful recoil at lower performance than for a typical small steel 38.
It was purchased to be available for my wife to shoot. Turns out she is more sensitive to recoil than I expected. As such, recoil even with normal mild 120 gr target ammo was too much for her.
After scrounging around my stuff I came up with a 102 gr Lee RN mold (108 gr as cast). I made up a bunch and "worked down" with both Titegroup and Promo (bulk version of Red Dot). For Promo, 2.8 gr was "low enough" to not bother her. Chrono out of a 3" gun was pretty close to 600 fps (more when "tipped back", less when "tipped forward" just prior to firing). I found that I enjoy shooting this gun with either these or the 120 gr target load.
A full power 158 crosses into "no fun" territory for the LCRx. I have some and would use them for SD, but shooting them at the range gets old fast.
Last edited by P Flados; 02-14-2024 at 08:20 PM.
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |