The Ram vs. the 30-30!

[Trailblazer]

Our club's levergun silhouette match has died, at least until somebody steps forward and volunteers to run the match. I do enjoy shooting the 30-30 and cast bullets at the steel targets so I decided to give it a try on the 500 meter silhouette range. I have been meaning to develop some cast loads for the 30-06 for silhouette but just haven't had the time to put into it. Anyway I had 30+ rounds of 30-30 ammo left from our last levergun match and inspired by 30WCF I thought I would give it a try on the 500 meter range. I didn't have enough ammo to shoot the whole course but I had enough to get an idea on sight settings.

I have a Redfield receiver sight on the 30-30 and a 24" barrel. The load is the 165 Saeco #311 and 21 grains 4198. I guesstimate about 1800 fps and I haven't shot it on paper but it shoots good. I managed to hit four targets. I hit one ram, which only produced a faint "tink". Need more powder and bigger bullets to knock them down! The Redfield sight was at the very top of its adjustment to get on the rams. Couldn't hit one of them dancing turkeys. Got one pig and two chickens, which all tipped over nicely. There was 36 minutes of elevation difference between rams and chickens according to the graduations on the Redfield sight.

Next step is to develop some faster loads. The Saeco load did OK on chickens and pigs but I will still try to increase the velocity. It may work on turkeys too, but its gettin to be a fer piece to turkeys at 385 meters so a hotter load may help. The only heavy mold I have is the HBC so it will get tested next in the 30-30. If that doesn't work I might try the Lee 200 grain because the molds are cheap or I might search for a Lyman 311284. It was fun shooting! Nobody expects you to hit anything with a levergun and they sure don't expect you to hit anything with cast bullets at those ranges.

[JohnH]

Hopefully this won't come off like I'm just an *******, but 15 or so years ago back home a couple buddies and myself shot a lot of NRA Hunter Pistol Silhouttee. We got a couple sheets of T1, cut out and made the targets, made up berms on the range and had matches every month. Was fun for a couple years but as with many things, life took different directions for us and others who were traveling to our shoots and eventually the thing died out. Yet there were people who kept saying they wanted to shoot it, but needed someone to run the matches (I don't have a BURNS MY ASS smilie) What do they think we did? Didn't wait around for someone to figure it out for us, that's for sure.

Now it may be that you are in my position, and are unable or unwilling (I definately understand that) to run the matches any longer. But if you are on the other side of the fence, try not waiting for someone else to do it, but get out there, set up and run the matches yourself. Put together a couple guys that want to keep it up and take charge. I doubt the guy(s) whose shoes you would be filling would feel put out about it, might actually give them a chance to show up for a match and just relax, shoot and enjoy. Too often a good things falls by the way side because no one will step up and be responsible, but they seem all too willing to take advantage of those who do.

[Buckshot]

................Might oughta set down with some paper and some ballistics stuff like sectional density, and BC of these slugs and some actual velocities and figure out if you can do it. Single loading the levergun will allow you to use a more efficient shape too.

One time for fun I used the Lyman 311284 in a good old Marlin 1893 with a 26" tapered octagon barrel. I figured where the slug was in the case seated out as far as I could get it, and still close the action. Naturally this was a single loading proposition.

From there I filled the case, using a 24" drop tube (trial and error) with as much WC872 as it could choke down. There were 2 positive results from this seat of the pants fooling around stuff. One was that the load was VERY accurate stacking 5 rounds on top of each other at 50 yards. The second was that it burned clean.

Since then I have read of folks using 200 and 200gr+ slugs over something like 34.0grs of 4350. The velocity I got with WC872 was like 1425 fps IIRC. I think the 4350 was delivering 1600 something. Possibly a pointy boolit like the 311299 and it's 200gr weight might just be the ticket to get out there, and with a high body hit, knock the ram over?

At our club's 200 meter silhuette matches they also allowed un-registered (not members of the sanctioning bodies) club members to shoot the match with cast lead. They called it the 'Cowboy' match for lack of a better term. We had to use cast lead in our rifles. There were 3-4 of us who would shoot through as a group.

Myself and a freind would sometimes use a 6.5 Swede. We both used the same boolit Ly 268645 @ 152grs and 34.0grs of WC860 for about 1550 fps. We didn't have any problems knocking over the 200 meter ram with those loads.

So possibly a streamlined 311299 up around 1700 fps or so might still have enough juice at 500 meters to push one over? Maybe even if the paper ballistics don't show it, the extra momentum of the heavier slug might do it? I'd shoot my 577-450 Martini with a 405gr Lee at 1250 fps and it would for sure retain enough stuff to knock the ram over.

.................Buckshot

[Trailblazer]

JohnH, been there, done that. Even if I wanted to, I DON'T HAVE TIME! The 500 meter game is my true love anyway.

Buckshot, I have been mulling over combinations. I am going to start with H414/760 because 30WCF had good results with that. I also have WC852 which does real well in my 356 Win with the RCBS 200, although not top velocity. With the limited case capacity it seems like the ball powders should give the highest velocity. Also have 748, WC846 and BLC-2, but those are a little on the fast side for heavy bullets. Initial work will be with the HBC. Who knows? It might work! I cast a few up yesterday. Gawd, is that single cavity mold ever slow!

Load development will happen at the match like most of my silhouette load development does. I have been shooting silhouette for a few years and if it don't go where its pointed when the trigger breaks it ain't a good load! If it don't knock the target down it ain't a good load! Work should ease up in 6 months or so and I will have more play time. Right now it is hard to get away to shoot an occasional match.

[McLintock]

Good ambition and probably going to be fun to play with, but I'm not sure that it can be done. For the 500 meter rams it takes momentum to consistently knock them down, justl like it takes torque to pull heavy loads in trucks, not horsepower. The biggest weight bullet you can get in a 30-30 case is probably a 200 gr and that doesn't leave much room for powder to drive it fast enough. You start using powders that are compatible with heavy bullets and you can't get enough in the case. I shoot 38-55's in both lever guns and single shots, with both smokeless and black powder, and that case capacity issue really is a bummer, and the 30-30 is just a necked down 38-55. In Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette, a 500+ gr .45 bullet at 11-1200 fps will just about always take a ram down, even with an edge hit. Go .40 caliber and a 400 gr at the same velocities will consistently do it, but go to .38 caliber and it gets iffy with 300+ grain bullets, even at higher velocities. Nobody uses a weight of less than 300 in a .38 no matter how fast they can drive it. They still "ring" rams with the .38's though, with off center hits and the like. Then, these heavier bullets have to be stabilized so they maintain their accuracy at those distances and a lever gun normally does not have the twist necessary for stabilizing heavy bullets. The 30-30 for years has had a factory loading of 150 or 170 gr and that's what most of the twists in lever guns are made for. If you start shooting 200's with these twists, will they stabilize enough at 500 meters to allow you to even hit the target if you do find a load with enough velocity. Like I say, it'll be fun to find out.
Good luck,
McLintock

[Trailblazer]

It has been done by John Kort who posts here as w30WCF. And anyway, it is all about the fun! Nobody pays me to go out there and humiliate myself. Even if I don't get any rams there are 30 other targets and I will beat some of those boltgunners on those 30 targets.

I'll shoot those rams in the horn. That ought to do it.

[Topper]

Still experimenting with this cartridge, but I stumbled across a load that works well in a TC 14' 30 Herrett barrel that's been rechambered to 30-30AI.
Inexpensive Lee mold, 150gr FPGC.
Using 32grains of IMR3031 yielded 2131fps / SD 13fps.
Accuracy was not as good as jacketed (yet) but under an inch @ 50yds.
Target
Elevated scope for last shot, just outside the bull.

[versifier]

I'd give the Lee 200gr RNGC a try with 3031 and RE-7. You never know unless you try and the mould is inexpensive enough to give it a shot.

[Trailblazer]

Topper, That sounds like a good load. I don't have 3031 but I do have some RL-7.

I will probably try the 200 Lee if what I have doesn't work. I borrowed one several years ago and cast a bunch up. They shot well in my 30-06. I probably shot some in my 30-30 but that would have been in my old barrel. The ones I had were to large on the bore rider to enter the bore. My 180 Lee mold makes the bore rider a bit large too. This barrel seems to be a little larger and they might work in it.

[McLintock]

The difference is probably going to be whether you can get a bore riding bullet for your barrel or not. This will greatly increase your powder capacity for the extra power you need. In my 38-55, using black powder, I can get 47 gr of 1 1/2F in a case with a Lyman 330 gr bullet which isn't bore riding, and 54 gr with a Brooks bullet that is bore riding, both with approximately the same compression. But, the top .38 shooters in silhouette are using .38-50 Remingtons and .38-72 Winchesters that carry at least 10 grs more than this, plus 365 gr bullets with 1-12 or 1-14 twist barrels, so I'm probably still marginal; mines 1-15. Find out what bullet John Kort is using and get a mould for it, or get a custom maker to cut a mould that will bore ride in your barrel. And if you can hit them in the horn or high on the back, that'll help a lot. Again, good luck and have fun doing it.
McLintock

[JSH]

I have been playing with the old RG-4 in my 30-30 some. This design may help you in your quest. Mine is dropping right around 196 with my alloy. I have not chronoed any to see what they are doing, did shoot paper to see if they were key holing and no sign there. I have also shot these in a 30-20 in a bf with fair to decent results on rams at 200M. Any that were hit ANY where went down. The 30-30 is a 10 twist as is the BF.
Jeff

[Trailblazer]

John said when he used the 311284 at 220 grains the rams "disappeared". He also mentioned the 311299 and the RCBS 180FN I think. Probably need 200 grains or more.

I narrowly missed a 4 cavity RG-4 at a gunshow a couple years ago with handles for $30. A "friend" bought it. I told him if he decided to get rid of it to let me know. I found out several months later he sold it to somebody else. I never have shot any of the RG-4 but it might do the trick.

A custom mold would be nice as this rifle doesn't have much throat and a bore rider would be good. I don't know if I am that serious about it yet. It looks like I could get a custom for what some of those old Lyman molds go for on Ebay.

[McLintock]

You might look at the NEI Catalogue, they have two .308 bullets listed with a .301 diameter ogive which might bore ride in your barrel. One's a 188 gr (#61A) and the other is 190 gr (#63), both gas checked. Also, you could design your own on the Mountain Moulds website and come out with a good bullet. You'd have to get the demensions of your barrel in order to design it, but slugging it needs to be done anyway, even to see if one of the NEI types would work.
McLintock

[Trailblazer]

McLintock, where do you shoot?

I do believe I would go the custom mold route before I would pay the price for an NEI mold. Probably not much difference.

Now that you talked me into it, do you want to finance it? I am beginning to see I need a sponsor for this endeavor. Custom 30" barrel to get the front sight farther away and with correct twist and throat for long cast bullets. Lyman globe front sight. Top quality windage and elevation adjustable tang sight. Custom butt stock with a higher comb so I can maintain a good cheek weld when the rear sight is elevated. And custom mold. Shouldn't be more than a couple thousand dollars.

[McLintock]

It can be a money pit allright, and get real expensive pretty quick; particularly if you're trying to do something that's kind of iffy to begin with. Mine are a Winchester '94 that started as a Oliver F. Winchester Commemerative in 38-55 that shot weirdly. So I had it cryotized (frozen first), that didn't work; then put a new barrel on it (one of Brownell's custom octogon 26"er's), that didn't help; so then found a pre-64 gun for $140, and put the action off that with the custom barrel and commemerative wood; and finally it's shooting pretty good, particularly with black powder, but I'd hate to add up the total cost. But you could put together something that may do the trick for far less than $2000; probably around half that or even less. You can even get your barrel throated in order to seat the long bullets out and save the cost of a barrel; if it will shoot the longer ones OK. Marbles's tang sights have longer stems in order to increase the distance a gun will shoot and combined with a low cost Lyman 17A, they work pretty good. My Browning Traditional Hunter in 38-55 has one as standard equipment, and with a very low front bead sight I can reach the rams with my high velocity smokeless load. Course, it doesn't zero much under 200 yards, and that's still with the standard stem. You just have to decide you want to do it, irregardless.
My other pit is a C. Sharps Hi-Wall in 38-55 for NRA Silhouette, that I put a MVA scope on, lengthened the chamber (you can't even begin to get enough powder in a standard chamber) , bought two custom moulds for, and I'm trying to work up a load that will consistently hit the rams for it. So sorry can't finance another endeavor. At times it makes me want to put the scope on my Browning BPCR in 45-70 and forget the 38-55; it shoots good and was far cheaper.
If you're talking a custom mould from the ground up, it's at least $150 and you can get one of the NEI moulds for about $105 in cast iron and less for aluminum. I think Mountain Moulds are about $125, so an off the shelf one from NEI that's a bore rider isn't too bad. I just paid $99 for an off the shelf Hoch mould from Midway for the 38-55 and thought that was pretty good for a decent mould.
I live in Dewey, Arizona (moving on into Prescott in a couple more months) and shoot mostly at Ben Avery Shooting Range on the north edge of Phoenix. I shoot with both a Cowboy Action Club and the NRA Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette group that shoots there. I also have permit badges from Ben Avery that allow me to practice on both the Silhouette range and a 100 yard bay at the range; it takes about 55 minutes to get to Ben Avery from my house. But I don't have anyone to man the spotting scope while shooting during the week, so haven't used that too much. I have a 3-400 yard practice range on the Prescott National Forest about 20 mins away from where I live, my own home made steel targets and paper holding frames, and a home made bench rest that fits into the receiver hitch on my pickup; not the best but it works. That's where I do most of my load development, when it's not too windy.
I like beatin' my head against a wall also, that's why I'm suggesting ways to go about it; hell, all it is, is money, and you're not a true gun nut until you get into these types of things. When you suddenly realize that you're spent more on something then you'll ever be able to get out of it, then you're there, gun nut heaven. When it does work, then it's all worthwhile, even if you're broke.
Again, good luck,
McLintock

[w30wcf]

Gentlemen,

I have three favorite heavy bullets for my .30-30 leverguns.

Old West 198 (weighs 205 grs. in w.w.+2% tin) -
I crimp this bullet over the front driving band. It has a .17 meplat and the loaded round measures 2.56" OAL and will feed through the magazine ok. I use 35 grs. of H414 / WLR primer and it does 2,080 f.p.s. in a 26" barrel. A ballistics lab tested this load for me and it developed 36,000 CUP (2,000 CUP below SAMMI .30-30 MAP) and did 2,035 fps in their 24" pressure barrel. It does the job on hard set 200 meter rams. I have also used it on the 500 meter rams in Ridgway and it does a decent job there too, but I prefer the 311299 or 311284 for long range work due to their higher bc's.

Lyman 311299 (weighs 208 grs. in w.w.+ 2% tin) -
I use the same 35 gr. / H414 charge with this bullet which I seat up to the 1st driving band for single loading. It shoots very well at 500 meters and just about every ram it has connected with has went earthward.

Lyman 311284 (weighs 220 grs. in w.w. + 2% tin) -
I use 34 / H414 (2,020 f.p.s. 26" barrel)with this bullet seated to touch the base of the 1st driving band. A ballistic lab ran a test on this load and it also developed pressure in the 36,000 CUP range. It also shoots very well at 500 meters and does a good job of toppling the steel rams. I have also tried a "mid range" load of 24 grs. of 4064 with this bullet which developed 1,700 f.p.s. and accuracy still held up well at 500 M from the 12" twist barrels.

1,000 yards-
I have tried all three bullets / loads at "Homer" the 1,000 yard buffalo. They hold up out there very well also. What fuunnn!

CAUTION -
If you try these loads, back off 10% to start. Not all powder lots or rifles are the same. H4350 can be substituted as can H4831 which can be increased by 2 grs. Surprisingly, 36 grs. of slow burning H4831 developed just about 2,000 f.p.s. in the 26" barrel with the 311284. 36grs. is a capacity load with that bullet.

Have fun,
w30wcf

[drinks]

Trailblazer;
I am shooting the Lee 200gr gc in a .303 Savage '99, 20" barrel.
35gr BLC2 or 25gr 4198 give me 2000 + - fps and very good 50 yd accuracy, under 1" with a Redfield receiver sight with .092 arperture.
I have not run this in Point Blank for 1000yd results, but is is pretty impressive at 500yds and is a very easy shooting load at the bench.
Don

[Trailblazer]

Thanks for the data!

John, your data matches well with the Lyman 45th handbook. They show 34.5 grains 760(same as H414) with a 190 gr. bullet gives 2017 fps at 39,000cup. That is the only heavy bullet data I have. Nice to have it confirmed by yours.

drinks, are you sure about the 35 gr. BLC-2? That looks a little hot! The Lyman book shows max of 29.5 gr. with the 190 gr. bullet for 2012 fps.

[drinks]

Trailblazer;
Hodgdon, who is pretty lawyered in their data, show 36gr BLC-2 with a 170gr jacketed bullet for .30-30 and the .303 Savage case is larger than the .30-30 and the action is stronger than the '94, although not noticeably stronger than the Marlin.
I have no problems with the load, primers are fine and it is no harder to resize than my plinker loads with the 113gc with 8gr Herco.

[StarMetal]

drinks,

According to a forum strictly on Winchester and Marlin leveractions, abd that's just one source, the 94 is actually the stronger of the two actions. Looks like a blowup test is in order.

Joe