Yeah I've read this too. I don't think this is the thread to discuss this though, so I won't. Thanks for the link.
Yeah I've read this too. I don't think this is the thread to discuss this though, so I won't. Thanks for the link.
My biggest problem with Marshall and Sanow is that they won't share their data with anyone. "Just trust us". Right. I've read all of their books, and the numbers are WAY too consistent to be real. None of their work has been peer viewed. A number of sources they quoted have publicly stated that M&S either misquoted them or never contacted them at all. The only conclusion I can come to is that their work is a hoax and a fraud.
Duncan Macpherson is a respected scientist who in 1976 published "Relative Incapacitation BULListics," which analyzed and detailed the fatal flaws in the now infamous Relative Incapacitation Index (RII). The National Institute of Justice NIJ, originator of the RII rating scheme, disregarded MacPherson's well-founded criticisms at the time. Then in 1986, street experience (in the Miami shootout) proved that MacPherson was correct when he wrote that RII was seriously flawed.
The Late Col. Martin L. Fackler, MC, USA served as a combat surgeon in Vietnam and was the first to calibrate gelatin test firings against live animal tissue.
His methodology formed the basis for the FBI test criteria used today.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
I followed Marshall back in the 80s and his numbers did change over time, ending up with the publication of their book. Sanow I always had less faith in, but he may have been part of the book deal.
If they were frauds, of which I am not convinced, like I said, point me to someone who did a better job. And the FBI, at least what I've read (or possibly what is publicly available), despite their money and resources, is not it.
I did not intend to hijack this thread. Contact me if you want to discuss privately, but I'm out here.
No need to discuss. I worked during that period as a consultant to the FBI Firearms Unit and also APG and Letterman and know the background and history. The M&S work would NEVER pass muster for publication by any peer-reviewed technical journal and I consider the matter closed.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
Fortunately, we don't have to reach consensus on the work of Marshall & Sanow in order to continue study of the sometimes under-appreciated virtues of the .32 ACP.
Here's how the .32 ACP Silvertip performed in my "extensive" (2 shots from a Walther PP) testing:
The bullet in the middle was expanded to about a half inch diameter by the water in a half gallon milk jug. The bullet on the right went through four layers of well-worn denim before hitting the water and didn't expand at all.
My testing setup is probably similar to what the FBI uses:
Under the shower curtain are a couple cardboard boxes filled with polyester pillow stuffing. The shower curtain just keeps the boxes and stuffing from getting soaked.
NOTE: Some bullets penetrate more pillow stuffing than others. The fully-expanded .32 only made it a few inches into the first box. The unexpanded .32 made it half way through the second box. And an energetic Keith HP from my buddy's 38-44 Heavy Duty scattered a trail of pillow stuffing extending 50 yards down range and was not recovered.
I'd like to see how that 100 grain XTP from Outpost75's kick-butt load handles the denim barrier. I think I've seen a youtube clip where a .380 XTP pretty much ignored the denim and expanded as designed. I'll see if I can find that.
Here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O15fRBdo-38
Last edited by pettypace; 06-29-2020 at 08:03 AM.
Been reloading for my CZ50 for decades. Just ordered a Ruger Single Six .32 H&R Mag 4.6". Got a Lee 90 gr TLSWC with the intent for galley loads for my .303 MLE and also for the handguns.
De Oppresso Liber
Irag: 91,03,04,05,06,08,09',15', 16',22-24'
Afghanistan: 09,10,11',14',17'-21'
Reviving this thread, I read all comments again and I am a fan of the .32s penetration with a hard round nose bullet.
Don't look for expansion, but I believe it is ahead of the .380 in penetration all else being equal.
The .380 also penetrates better withhardball, but the .32 hardball heart shot or maybe even head shot may be better.
I likes .32 pistols. Regardless.
I also like the comments posted on here.
Last edited by Alferd Packer; 03-14-2023 at 04:21 AM.
I have two Kel-Tec P32's and I like them very much. Both of them function 100%. The first one is dead on, and I feed it 78 grain flat nose pills from Accurate Molds over 1.9 grains Titewad for 815 fps and excellent accuracy. I deactivated the LRHO feature on this one because the fat nose lead slugs can cause it lock open. The other was shooting low and to the right, which I verified with reloads and factory 71 grain FMJ. Sent it off to Kel-Tec. They had it for about a month, sent it back to me with a new barrel. Took it for a test drive last night with CCI FMJ. Very pleased to see it is now consistently dead on or a little bit high at 7 yards, just how I like it. Love these little pocket rockets, much more so than the micro .380's. Carrying one right now in fact. The P32 is one of my top 3 CCW guns, along with the S&W 637 and Glock 42. I shoot all of them really well, and they are reliable and easy to carry.
Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, 6.5 Creedmoor, .30 WCF, .308 WCF, .45-70.
I used to have an FN Browning Model 1922 in 32 ACP. It was a great pistol. Had Nazi proof marks. Lost it in a burglary.
Question for the group.
I understand that most fanciers of the .32 revolvers favor the 3"-4" barrels for higher velocity and longer sight radius.
However I have recently been tinkering with a 1-7/8" Model 30-1 which I have refitted a "long" +0.005" cylinder to, so that it now has a minimum barrel-cylinder gap of pass 0.003" and hold 0.004", compared to 0.008/ 0.009 as built. It now produces velocities exceeding my 3-inch Model 30-1 having B-C gap of 0.005 pass and 0.006" hold.
I would love to see velocity data from others who have chronographed either factory lead ammo, or a full charge, standard pressure handload, such as any 90-100 grain lead bullet with 2.5 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup.
Snubby data would be interesting, but if all you have is a longer barrel, measure B-C gap and post what you've got.
I'm looking at 850 fps with Accurate 31-109D with 2.5 grains of Bullseye from the min. tight tapped snubby. Does same in 3" Model 30-1 with 0.006 gap or 4" Colt Police Positive with 0.008" gap.
My choice for ogival wadcutter in the .32 S&W Long.
Last edited by Outpost75; 08-18-2023 at 09:26 PM.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
Mine all have 6" barrels. I like a load of 2.5 grains of Unique and a 110 grain powder coated LSWC from Jerry's down the street. It punches fine holes in the paper when I go to the range.
https://reloadammo.com/32-s-w-long-reloading-data/
I've been following this thread since I found this website. Probably posted a time or two.
I have a pair of .32ACP's; a french made PP and a Savage 1907. Both are a great deal of fun and pretty good shooters. While I've never taken game with .32cal Pistol, I've taken a bunny and Squirrel or 3 with a 5" Colt Police Positive and a 5 1/2" Ruger SSM. We'll bypass the .32H&R Derringer and Grandma's S&W LemonSqueezer in .32Short & Wimpy.
The little Colt will group in about 2"+ at 50ft.
The Rger a bit better.
I love them all, I just wish I'd gotten My hands on Dad's Colt 1903's( 1 each) and Browning 1922.
I HATE auto-correct
Happiness is a Warm GUN & more ammo to shoot in it.
My Experience and My Opinion, are just that, Mine.
SASS #375 Life
Once it cools off a bit, I'll dig out the Chronograph and try a few loads.
I have a S&W snubby, and two I frames with 3¼ and 4¼" barrels plus a couple of Ruger SSM's to test.
I have a mostly full one pound coffee can (13 oz, but who's counting) of the RCBS 32-098-SWC, new Starline brass and new Fiochhi primers. It won't take too much Bullseye.
I will have to find my feeler gage to measure B/C gap though.
Robert
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |