My homemade black powder

[DoubleBuck]

Trapper;
Congratulations on your tests! Consistency looks great.
One question. Do you know what the puck densities were? The 92% volume/weight ratio against Goex seems to be about normal. Getting 100% has been reported very few times. The efficiency of 22 FPS/Grain is very good for 2ff powder and a 50 cal. round ball, as well, according to my tests.
You have done very well, in my opinion and thanks for the report!

[Trapper-Jack]

Most of my pucks ran in the 1.7 to 1.8 grams per cc. The 92% was comparing the ground willow powder 2F-ish to Goex 2F.
I've got a new toy so I plan on doing some more testing like to weight to weight and volume to volume testing. I'll let you know how it performs.

[indian joe]

Most of my pucks ran in the 1.7 to 1.8 grams per cc.

The 92% was comparing the ground willow powder 2F-ish to Goex 2F.
the only comparison test that means much really

I've got a new toy so I plan on doing some more testing like to weight to weight and volume to volume testing. I'll let you know how it performs.

.....

[indian joe]

This last week I finally broke down and bought a chronograph to do some velocity testing on my Hybrid Willow powder against Goex. I used some Goex 2F and my Willow was passing the #16 screen and retained on the #30. I shot a string of five shots each through my Lyman GPR flintlock with a 32" barrel. .021 spit lubed patch and a .490 round ball. I was using an adjustable brass measure but compensating for the difference in weight. The Goex weight of 65 grains corresponded to 65 grains of my measure. Where my Willow powder is 92% by weight of Goex, it measured 71 grains on the measure. Once the measure was set it wasn't changed during the string. When time permits, I'll use actual prepared weighed loads and see if there is much difference. I used the measure this time as 99% of the time I am loading from the bag.
Goex
Average Velocity - 1390 fps
Extreme Spread - 35 fps
Standard Deviation - 14.76
Hybrid Willow
Average Velocity - 1430 fps
Extreme Spread - 24 fps
Standard Deviation - 9.04
As I said, the next step will be to see what actual weighed loads do as I may have a variance in the volume setting of the measure which could change the actual velocity of the string. So far the two numbers that have me excited are the extreme spread and the standard deviation. They indicate that my powder is more consistent.
I would like to thank all of you that have contributed to this thread that have brought me to this point.

who said we couldnt do it ? you just made powder at least equal to the best you can buy - my experience with willow is similar and to boot its a cleaner powder = fouling control is easier. well done...............

[jmh54738]

What am I not doing, as my density is only about 83% of Goex ? ...24 hours of ball mill, pucks are pressed to a gauge pressure of 7 tons, dried, and are as hard as peanut brittle. Pucks are crushed, run through a barley mill, screened, and I still get 83% density. I have not glazed the screened powder, which would round off the sharp edges and perhaps increase the density.
I have slowly cooked eight one gallon cans of various woods to 600 deg. those being Aspen. box elder, white pine, sumac, buckthorn, cedar, red berry elder, and willow. All woods were harvested in the spring when the sap was up. The sumac charcoal was the softest to grind, buttery smooth, while the buckthorn was crispy and crunchy. Four of the woods have been used for making 1/2 pound batches, while the other four are in process. No shooting yet, but the chronograph results will be interesting. The humidity has been terribly high, so I use a slow cooker and a yogurt maker to keep the products and ingredients dry. I may also use silica gel desiccant in the containers.
On a weight basis, my product exceeds the velocity of GOEX.
John

[LAGS]

I think 83% density isn't too bad for home made BP.
Most of mine comes out around 80 to 85% using a 20 ton press.
Shooting the powder with a 15% more powder than factory stuff per matching weight matches the factory powder performance.
I find it easier just to make powder measures that hold homemade powder by the actual weight rather than by volume like factory measures.

[Trapper-Jack]

I'm cooking my wood at about 400 degrees. I'm using a 20 ton jack to press my powder with about 4.5% water. I'm drying my pucks in a dehydrator and crush and grind them after completely dry. When I compare ground weight to Goex, its running about 92%. When comparing like weights of my powder and Goex, I'm getting about 5% more velocity out of my powder. When comparing like volumes, my powder is running about 98% of what Goex does. So far I've tested Juniper, Quaking Aspen and Hybrid Willow. The willow does the best as far a consistency.
I shot a 10 shot string today with my volumetric measure set on 71 grains. It averaged 1438 fps with an extreme spread of 25 fps. The standard deviation went 8.449.

[jmh54738]

Thanks for the info, Trapper. I failed to mention that my 600 degrees was in Fahrenheit. Was your 400 degrees in F or C ? I would assume that it is 400 deg C, as 400 F wouldn't even toast the wood. 400 deg C would be 752 F.
John

[indian joe]

What am I not doing, as my density is only about 83% of Goex ? ...24 hours of ball mill, pucks are pressed to a gauge pressure of 7 tons, dried, and are as hard as peanut brittle. Pucks are crushed, run through a barley mill, screened, and I still get 83% density. I have not glazed the screened powder, which would round off the sharp edges and perhaps increase the density.
I have slowly cooked eight one gallon cans of various woods to 600 deg. those being Aspen. box elder, white pine, sumac, buckthorn, cedar, red berry elder, and willow. All woods were harvested in the spring when the sap was up. The sumac charcoal was the softest to grind, buttery smooth, while the buckthorn was crispy and crunchy. Four of the woods have been used for making 1/2 pound batches, while the other four are in process. No shooting yet, but the chronograph results will be interesting. The humidity has been terribly high, so I use a slow cooker and a yogurt maker to keep the products and ingredients dry. I may also use silica gel desiccant in the containers.
On a weight basis, my product exceeds the velocity of GOEX.
John

Density only matters in brasss cartridges

you are exceeding goex on a weight basis

I bet your powder takes a lot more compression than Goex before its too much - so likely equal velocity in cartridge guns = not doin anything "wrong" --just might take a bit more work (loading) ammo - I test compression with a ten dollar luggage scale on the end on my press handle (works best on a simple action press) - I have loaded 40 grains of FFFscreened powder (mid 60% density) into 44/40 cases by double compressing (fill case to top - compress deeply then refil and compress to boolit depth) - it worked fine (kinda tedious process tho) velocity was equal to same weight of corned powder

Screened powder at 65% works fine in front loaders (including pistols) and much easier process to make.

[Trapper-Jack]

My 400 degrees is F. I cook my wood on a propane burner in a gallon paint can with a steel five gallon bucket overturned over the paint can. I've fastened a small pipe from the vent in the paint can lid to extend through the bottom of the steel bucket so I can watch the smoke. I use an inferred thermometer to keep the temperature of the bucket at about 400 degrees.

[HamGunner]

What am I not doing, as my density is only about 83% of Goex ? ...24 hours of ball mill, pucks are pressed to a gauge pressure of 7 tons, dried, and are as hard as peanut brittle. Pucks are crushed, run through a barley mill, screened, and I still get 83% density.
John

I went back to page 180 on this thread and found the chart of recommended PSI for compression of the pucks. Looks like 7 tons is about right for a 2 1/2" diameter die.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...powder/page180


I use 12 tons of pressure on my 3" puck die, or whatever my 12 ton jack will give me, and I hold the pressure for about 2-3 minutes before releasing.

I normally get right around 92-94 % weight density compared to an equal volume of similar sized GOEX. My velocity is similar to GOEX with a like amount of powder by weight if not slightly higher. But since my powder is not the exact same sized granules as 'GOEX, I think a true like sized test would give GOEX a very slight edge in velocity per like measured volume,

My ash content of my charcoal (Sassafras) is well under 2%.

[jmh54738]

My press is a two stage 45 ton. The pressure gauge is graduated in "tons on a 3 1/2" cylinder, the diameter of the cylinder of the press. I don't quite know how to interpret that . 7 tons of force on a 3 1/2" cylinder acting upon a 2 1/2 " puck die would result in more psi upon the puck due to fewer square inches...?? I managed to split a smaller 1 5/8" bronze puck die with a 3/16" wall thickness at about 10 tons. My current 2 1/2" die is 6061 T6 aluminum with a 3/8" wall thickness. It takes an arbor press to press each puck from the die.
The lowest ash content that I have tested was 1.8%, which was from Red Berry Elder charcoal. I haven't tested the Staghorn Sumac charcoal for ash content, but I do notice that the powder is significantly blacker than others, which are a dark grey.
John

[DoubleBuck]

jmh54738;
"What am I not doing, as my density is about 83% of Goex ?"
Learning to cook Brown powder has made my most remarkable difference in weight/volume ratio.
Another thing that raised my density was getting the fines out until your head falls off. It can be tedious, but as long as fines keep falling, your density is going up. You really can't screen it too much.
I've polished some powder, but did not see an appreciable difference in density. And, I may not have done that exactly correct, by either time or method. It did make it look good, and removed some more dust, when finally screened. A couple of other guys have reported the same general results.
I have seen it discussed here, but another thing that may affect final density is breaking the pucks up damp out of the press, or dry. I have had good luck breaking them up dry, but have read a couple of things from Bill Knight, that stated the commercial houses let the pressed powder cakes 'cure' a bit, then break them up. Then they go to the drying shed. I have not done both ways and then compared the results, as to weight/volume ratio.
As others have noted, my best chronograph results were with screened Sassafras, with weighed 60 grain charges, which were nearly a third larger volume, than a weighed 60 grain charge of Schuetzen, or my corned powder. Probably about your 83% difference. It performed very well in accuracy, speed and cleanliness. It was just light. But then again, I was using a muzzle loader, so more volume was not an issue for me.
I spent a lot of time working on density and it is still the most elusive of problems to solve. With the press/die you are using, I would think your problem is not due to your press, or your methods. The woods could be lighter initial density, than what Goex uses. I read they used Maple in the past. Which is dense compared to the woods you listed.
If you can get equal performance from equal weight charges, about the only thing I can think of that would positively affect your loading density is grain size and pressed density. Some say that when commercial powder is polished and glazed with graphite, that it increases the density a small amount, but graphite also adds to the carbon content, which 'moderates' the burn. It definitely makes it harder to light.
I probably didn't help you a bit, with your problem, but maybe others can. I will wish you good luck in the quest!

[indian joe]

jmh54738;
"What am I not doing, as my density is about 83% of Goex ?"
Learning to cook Brown powder has made my most remarkable difference in weight/volume ratio.
Another thing that raised my density was getting the fines out until your head falls off. It can be tedious, but as long as fines keep falling, your density is going up. You really can't screen it too much.
yep I have been pedantic about screening since the get go

I've polished some powder, but did not see an appreciable difference in density. And, I may not have done that exactly correct, by either time or method. It did make it look good, and removed some more dust, when finally screened. A couple of other guys have reported the same general results.
I have seen it discussed here, but another thing that may affect final density is breaking the pucks up damp out of the press, or dry. I have had good luck breaking them up dry, but have read a couple of things from Bill Knight, that stated the commercial houses let the pressed powder cakes 'cure' a bit, then break them up. Then they go to the drying shed. I have not done both ways and then compared the results, as to weight/volume ratio.
Interesting - worth trying for sure - my gut says more fines but maybe not?

As others have noted, my best chronograph results were with screened Sassafras, with weighed 60 grain charges, which were nearly a third larger volume, than a weighed 60 grain charge of Schuetzen, or my corned powder.
Screened vs commercial ---60% to 65% density - is pretty much par I think - I havent seen Schutzen (Wano) for years = dirty and slow I reckon

Probably about your 83% difference. It performed very well in accuracy, speed and cleanliness. It was just light. But then again, I was using a muzzle loader, so more volume was not an issue for me.
I spent a lot of time working on density and it is still the most elusive of problems to solve. With the press/die you are using, I would think your problem is not due to your press, or your methods. The woods could be lighter initial density, than what Goex uses. I read they used Maple in the past. Which is dense compared to the woods you listed.
If you can get equal performance from equal weight charges, about the only thing I can think of that would positively affect your loading density is grain size and pressed density. Some say that when commercial powder is polished and glazed with graphite, that it increases the density a small amount, but graphite also adds to the carbon content, which 'moderates' the burn. It definitely makes it harder to light.
I probably didn't help you a bit, with your problem, but maybe others can. I will wish you good luck in the quest!

......

[HWooldridge]

jmh54738;
"What am I not doing, as my density is about 83% of Goex ?"
Learning to cook Brown powder has made my most remarkable difference in weight/volume ratio.
Another thing that raised my density was getting the fines out until your head falls off. It can be tedious, but as long as fines keep falling, your density is going up. You really can't screen it too much.
I've polished some powder, but did not see an appreciable difference in density. And, I may not have done that exactly correct, by either time or method. It did make it look good, and removed some more dust, when finally screened. A couple of other guys have reported the same general results.
I have seen it discussed here, but another thing that may affect final density is breaking the pucks up damp out of the press, or dry. I have had good luck breaking them up dry, but have read a couple of things from Bill Knight, that stated the commercial houses let the pressed powder cakes 'cure' a bit, then break them up. Then they go to the drying shed. I have not done both ways and then compared the results, as to weight/volume ratio.
As others have noted, my best chronograph results were with screened Sassafras, with weighed 60 grain charges, which were nearly a third larger volume, than a weighed 60 grain charge of Schuetzen, or my corned powder. Probably about your 83% difference. It performed very well in accuracy, speed and cleanliness. It was just light. But then again, I was using a muzzle loader, so more volume was not an issue for me.
I spent a lot of time working on density and it is still the most elusive of problems to solve. With the press/die you are using, I would think your problem is not due to your press, or your methods. The woods could be lighter initial density, than what Goex uses. I read they used Maple in the past. Which is dense compared to the woods you listed.
If you can get equal performance from equal weight charges, about the only thing I can think of that would positively affect your loading density is grain size and pressed density. Some say that when commercial powder is polished and glazed with graphite, that it increases the density a small amount, but graphite also adds to the carbon content, which 'moderates' the burn. It definitely makes it harder to light.
I probably didn't help you a bit, with your problem, but maybe others can. I will wish you good luck in the quest!

Another variable to consider is that (so far as I know) none of the individuals on this forum are using the heavy wheel method employed by commercial powder manufacturers from the past. Bill Knight theorized the extra smearing action contributed better mixing, which could equal higher density in the final result.

[DoubleBuck]

indian joe;
I did not know that Schuetzen was the same as Wano. The only commercial powder I've ever bought was Graff and Son's and it was made by Schuetzen. I thought it was what everyone called Swiss powder, but read on a can, it had a Swiss address, but was actually made in Germany.
HWooldridge;
If you would hurry up and make a muller for me, one of us would be using one! Seriously, that is something I have wondered as well. Maybe the wheels are a key to getting higher density.

[HWooldridge]

DB, I haven’t given up - just been too hot here to do much in the shop. I actually have some sketches drawn up, using an old freon bottle as the “bowl”. I plan to use it with the top open, so any accidental explosions will go up instead of being contained.

[DoubleBuck]

HW; I will be interested to see what you come up with. I think it is a very good idea. It would be great to be able to mull a few ounces at a time.
One thing I have wondered about the large stones. It looks like they would wear somewhat, from the abrasion. Which would add to trash in the powder. But, maybe it is insignificant. It seems to be industry standard for over a hundred years, so it must work.
If you build it, they will come!
I hear ya on the hot. It was 100° here, yesterday. Started building up a storm early this morning, and rained 1.2". The high was 79° today, and it feels simply marvelous.

[Nobade]

I doubt you can see this without a Facebook account, but Wano powder just posted a video of some footage of their wheel mill running. I thought it was interesting, I had not seen a modern one in action.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1742294742889612

[HWooldridge]

My muller design would use much smaller steel caster wheels so the weight won’t be there, but I plan to use compression die springs to generate the crush factor. The overall throughput would increase if we could make a half pound of powder in 3-4 hours instead of the many more hours required for tumbling - and/or the quality of the end product might improve. I would be happy with producing a pound of powder per day, especially if it was as good or better than commercial stuff.

I watched the Wano link. Pretty cool and seems to mimic some of the info in Bill Knight’s writings.