Anyone shoot 600 yds with their boolits?

[TD1886]

As TD1886 mentions, the 323471 is an excellent bullet. It is the only cast bullet I have ever gotten consistently good accuracy at 600 yards with out of 10" twist milsurp rifles. This has been with 8x57 M98 Mausers having excellent to new condition milspec barrels with a .325/.326 long throat. With theGC seated to the base of the case neck, the front drive band of a .325 sized 323471 is at or very near the leade. Thus a perfect fit.

The 323471 has a long bearing surface with an excellent designed nose giving it an excellent BC. The milspec barrels also will have grooves .005+ deep along with the bullet design and fit in the throat which allow the RPM threshold to be pushed up. Of course a slow burning powder should be used. The bullets need be cast of an appropriate alloy, properly weight sorted and properly loaded. Doing so, the velocity can be pushed up to 2100 +/- fps and maintain linear group expansion at longer ranges.

With such I have consistently held 10 shots inside 2 moa at 600 yards with my VZ24 and a couple other M98 8x57s.

So wonder why Lyman never made a comparable 30 caliber bullet with as high BC?

The VZ24 and other 98's were they scoped?

[mace2364]

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

Since I shoot some 8mms, I’m going to have to find that 323471 mold. I wonder if NOE(or anyone else) does something similar?

[Larry Gibson]

NOE makes the 323471.

[Larry Gibson]

So wonder why Lyman never made a comparable 30 caliber bullet with as high BC?

The VZ24 and other 98's were they scoped?

Milsurp and commercial 06s don't have a long throat like M98 8mm's. That's why I suspect Loverin never designed a similar bullet in 30 cal.

The VZ24 has a 6X Leopold on it. Another M98 had a post front and a Lyman 48 receiver sight. A couple others had issue sights with shims being used under the leaf for fine elevation adjustment.

[TD1886]

Milsurp and commercial 06s don't have a long throat like M98 8mm's. That's why I suspect Loverin never designed a similar bullet in 30 cal.

The VZ24 has a 6X Leopold on it. Another M98 had a post front and a Lyman 48 receiver sight. A couple others had issue sights with shims being used under the leaf for fine elevation adjustment.

Are you sure you have the MOA correct, you said little less then 2 MOA at 600 yards. That's hard to believe for those rifles, or did I figure that out incorrectly?

In my opinion the 06 does have an acceptable throat in addition to a long case neck. That 8mm bullet has a rather long pointed nose then the more comment Loverin nose.

Larry convert that 2 MOA to inches, tell us what it is. I'll bet you it doesn't sound so impressive when displayed in inches. Do you know of the Camp Gruber Ranges in Oklahoma? I've shot there after it was shot down and abandoned. My friend had a Remington 700 in 30-06. Wanted to see what it did at 500 yards as he was training himself for an upcoming Elk hunt in Colorado (which he did and he and his brother both harvested two Elk at nearly 500 yards?). One of the rifles I brought along was a 1908 Brazilian in 7x57 Mauser. At that time I was shooting the Lyman 150 Loverin and not really pushing it fast. I took my five shots off of bags prone position. We jumped in his VW Beetle and drove out to see the target. I had no idea where to set the Mauser elevator sight so I just cranked it up about a 1/4 of it's range. When we got out there I did indeed hit the target and they dropped about 2.5 feet from the bull and were down on the bottom left hand corner of the refrigerator cardboard backer. The group was 9 inches. I believe even at 600 yards it would still have been less then your shooting and I was using issue Mauser sights.

[TD1886]

In my opinion this member is doing just as good as Larry:


Adam Helmer
Adam Helmer is offline
Boolit Master

Join Date
Aug 2014
Location
Mansfield, PA
Posts
618

mace,

From my hayfield across the valley to my friendly neighbor's hayfield is a lasered 600 yards mid field. Using my favorite M1 Garand and the Lee .312 185rn gc boolit and IMR 4895, from my shooting bench, I ding the white 5 gallon bucket constantly.
Before long, I will need to replace the bucket.

Adam

[ascast]

A minute of angle is 1.047 inches, or an inch at 100 yards. 2 moa @ 600 is about a foot, or 12.5 inches if you calculate it out with no rounding.

[mace2364]

In my opinion this member is doing just as good as Larry:


Adam Helmer
Adam Helmer is offline
Boolit Master

Join Date
Aug 2014
Location
Mansfield, PA
Posts
618

mace,

From my hayfield across the valley to my friendly neighbor's hayfield is a lasered 600 yards mid field. Using my favorite M1 Garand and the Lee .312 185rn gc boolit and IMR 4895, from my shooting bench, I ding the white 5 gallon bucket constantly.
Before long, I will need to replace the bucket.

Adam

I sent him a message.

[TD1886]

A minute of angle is 1.047 inches, or an inch at 100 yards. 2 moa @ 600 is about a foot, or 12.5 inches if you calculate it out with no rounding.

Yes I know that thanks you. I'm just pointing out 2 MOA, a smaller number, makes it appear to be more impressive. BTW the diameter of that 5 gallon bucket is 11.872 inches and guess what it's smaller than? You guessed it 2 MOA.

[charlie b]

LOL, I think Larry knows what he is saying. Most of us in here know that 2MOA at 600yd is around 12". Milsurp standards I have seen go between 2.5 to 4MOA depending on the rifle and country of origin.

There are many milsurps that can do better than that. All depends on the condition and original quality of the barrel you have.

As for 600yd accuracy, it does depend a lot on the bullet. Some do well when dropping below supersonic and some don't. I have one that will do close to MOA at 500yd (not a milsurp), but, it looks like a shotgun pattern at 600.

Larry's statement about velocity and the 1-10 twist is appropriate for discussing 600yd shooting with cast bullets. I've been trying to get less than 1.5MOA at 600 for a while now and it is elusive. Takes a fairly high starting vel and almost perfect bullets. If you have a 1-12 or slower twist it is 'easier' to get bullets good enough for the higher vel.

PS I am not shooting a milsurp. It is a Savage that shoots jacketed sub MOA at 1000yd.

[TD1886]

LOL, I think Larry knows what he is saying. Most of us in here know that 2MOA at 600yd is around 12". Milsurp standards I have seen go between 2.5 to 4MOA depending on the rifle and country of origin.

There are many milsurps that can do better than that. All depends on the condition and original quality of the barrel you have.

As for 600yd accuracy, it does depend a lot on the bullet. Some do well when dropping below supersonic and some don't. I have one that will do close to MOA at 500yd (not a milsurp), but, it looks like a shotgun pattern at 600.

Larry's statement about velocity and the 1-10 twist is appropriate for discussing 600yd shooting with cast bullets. I've been trying to get less than 1.5MOA at 600 for a while now and it is elusive. Takes a fairly high starting vel and almost perfect bullets. If you have a 1-12 or slower twist it is 'easier' to get bullets good enough for the higher vel.

PS I am not shooting a milsurp. It is a Savage that shoots jacketed sub MOA at 1000yd.

Sure it's harder to get accuracy WITH CAST in the faster twists, most everyone knows that. As you for getting that 1.5 MOA at 600 yards I may have the rifle to do it. It's a scoped Yugo 48 B that was unissued until I got it. I have it scoped and the last time I shot it was at 469 yards and the last group I shot was just under 2 INCHES not MOA. Yes that's only 469 yards, but there is absolutely no doubt if it does that at that distance that it would do under 1.5 MOA at 600 yards. I still like the member here shooting and hitting that 11.872 inch water bucket at 600 yards. I feel the M1 Garand to be a little more difficult with cast then a bolt rifle because you have a few more parameters to meet then a bolt gun. Those are the rifle is a semi-automatic so cycling, then there is feeding where OAL is very important, and Garand has more junk hanging off it's barrel then a kitchen sink. Garand sights are decent, but they aren't national match unless you installed them.

[charlie b]

Like I stated, 500yd I have done less than MOA more than once. At 600 the same load falls apart because it goes subsonic. Attached is one of the targets. I also have a couple of videos hitting a 5" gong at 500yd.

Just because yours works at 469 does not mean it will work at 600.

[TD1886]

Like I stated, 500yd I have done less than MOA more than once. At 600 the same load falls apart because it goes subsonic. Attached is one of the targets. I also have a couple of videos hitting a 5" gong at 500yd.

Just because yours works at 469 does not mean it will work at 600.

That's true, but here are some things to think about. That Lyman 8mm bullet has a BC that's over .400. Also I never stated at what velocity I had the loads set for. It's no slow poke and I think it would make the extra 131 yards fine. Appears you've done some fine shooting too.

[mace2364]

The matches I’m shooting are using steel targets. The one at 600 is a silhouette. They sometimes have a bonus target that’s a little guy at about 625. But my goal is to reliably hit the 600 with a cast load. I can do it with the jacketed loads I’m currently using. So, as long as they’re grouping a couple MOA, it’ll be fine.

You guys that are shooting 5-600-are you using straight linotype or something else?

So far, all of my casting has been with wheel weights. I used the Lee hardness tool to check my most recent batch and it’s suitable to use with the 600yd w/IMR-4198 that’s in the “cast bullets in military rifles” article on this page. That load shoots pretty well(at 100 at least) out of my ‘03 Springfield, but I’ve yet to try it at that kind of distance. I don’t know if anybody has tried those loads at 600.

[Larry Gibson]

I suggest Lyman #2 alloy WQ'd. That will give them a BHN the same as linotype but with a much less brittle bullet. #2 is the alloy I use for all my match level cast bullets.

[TD1886]

The matches I’m shooting are using steel targets. The one at 600 is a silhouette. They sometimes have a bonus target that’s a little guy at about 625. But my goal is to reliably hit the 600 with a cast load. I can do it with the jacketed loads I’m currently using. So, as long as they’re grouping a couple MOA, it’ll be fine.

You guys that are shooting 5-600-are you using straight linotype or something else?

So far, all of my casting has been with wheel weights. I used the Lee hardness tool to check my most recent batch and it’s suitable to use with the 600yd w/IMR-4198 that’s in the “cast bullets in military rifles” article on this page. That load shoots pretty well(at 100 at least) out of my ‘03 Springfield, but I’ve yet to try it at that kind of distance. I don’t know if anybody has tried those loads at 600.

I would never shoot Linotype. Linotype will wear your throat fast especially when you push the bullets fast. I shoot Lyman #2 and 50/50 which is ww's and lead. I water drop them and let them age. Nothing special for the 8x57 it's such a good cartridge for cast. I do only neck size, then full size to bring them back as they start to get a hard bolt lift. I use an inline bullet seater.

BTW for charlie b that 8mm Lyman bullet has a BC of .479. In the Lyman 3rd edition manual that has ballistic data in the back says starting that bullet at 2000 fps that it still is doing 1182 fps at 600 yards. I'm shooting it faster then that. So it's not going subsonic at 600 yards.

[charlie b]

I use Lyman #2 air dropped and powder coated. No water quench.

I don't disagree that your load might do ok at 600, but, until you do it then there isn't much proof that it will. I thought my loads would do 600 ok until I tried it. Like I stated, the bullet design does have something to do with it. FWIW, the bullet I use is still going 1158fps at 600yd if it has a muzzle vel of 2000fps. When I tried shooting at 600 I went up to 2300fps and still had issues at that range. Above 2300 and I started seeing 'rotation' issues. 2100 is what I use as a max and that gives me 1210fps at 600yd. It is not accurate at that range, but, is great at 500yd.

[TD1886]

I use Lyman #2 air dropped and powder coated. No water quench.

I don't disagree that your load might do ok at 600, but, until you do it then there isn't much proof that it will. I thought my loads would do 600 ok until I tried it. Like I stated, the bullet design does have something to do with it. FWIW, the bullet I use is still going 1158fps at 600yd if it has a muzzle vel of 2000fps. When I tried shooting at 600 I went up to 2300fps and still had issues at that range. Above 2300 and I started seeing 'rotation' issues. 2100 is what I use as a max and that gives me 1210fps at 600yd. It is not accurate at that range, but, is great at 500yd.

What is your bullet and we'll go with that 2100 fps load. I will punch it in and mine too.

I just edited to add what my bullet is doing to 1000 yards. At 600 yards the velocity is 1414.5 fps. At 1000 yards it's 1100 fps on the button. I keep telling everyone that .479 is a very high BC for a cast bullet or even many jacketed. Energy is 951.5 dang good enough for deer at that range. I wouldn't try the shot.

[TD1886]

I use Lyman #2 air dropped and powder coated. No water quench.

I don't disagree that your load might do ok at 600, but, until you do it then there isn't much proof that it will. I thought my loads would do 600 ok until I tried it. Like I stated, the bullet design does have something to do with it. FWIW, the bullet I use is still going 1158fps at 600yd if it has a muzzle vel of 2000fps. When I tried shooting at 600 I went up to 2300fps and still had issues at that range. Above 2300 and I started seeing 'rotation' issues. 2100 is what I use as a max and that gives me 1210fps at 600yd. It is not accurate at that range, but, is great at 500yd.

When you stated you started having "rotational issue" what exactly did you mean. I know about bullet rpm, what I'm asking is was speeding the bullet causing you to have less accuracy? What is your twist and what is your caliber?

Although bullet rpm doesn't deteriate as much a the bullet velocity it does change a lot at the real far distances. I think most reloading figure out the twist and the bullet rpm with the muzzle velocity and don't thing about it there 200, 300, ...............600................1000 yards. Starting at the muzzle at 2200 fps my Mauser spins the bullet at 171 K. At 600 yards that rpm has decayed to 97K. That's a huge drop.

[ulav8r]

When you stated you started having "rotational issue" what exactly did you mean. I know about bullet rpm, what I'm asking is was speeding the bullet causing you to have less accuracy? What is your twist and what is your caliber?

Although bullet rpm doesn't deteriate as much a the bullet velocity it does change a lot at the real far distances. I think most reloading figure out the twist and the bullet rpm with the muzzle velocity and don't thing about it there 200, 300, ...............600................1000 yards. Starting at the muzzle at 2200 fps my Mauser spins the bullet at 171 K. At 600 yards that rpm has decayed to 97K. That's a huge drop.

What makes you think the rotation slows that much? The only thing that would affect the rotation would be air friction against the rotation, dropping velocity would not have any affect on the rpm..