Originally Posted by
1hole
Thunder it's both, but with a significant time difference.
It's easy for us to read more out of scripture than is actually there; that's how we get a lot of misunderstood doctrine. Reading what the Bible actually says and does not say tends to open up what it really means. You are saying that you have to look at what the bible doesn't say to figure out what it does say, are you saying that you think that scripture is so incomplete that you have to read between the lines?
I suppose if you have no actual clear scripture to support your doctrine, that system works. Laughable
First, everyone should understand that the Book of Revelation does not give a specific sequence of end times. The written word cannot be timed precisely because some of the events are sequential and some of it runs consecutive but, in general, the Bible's timeline is nearly linear. Its sequence tells us the next major historical spiritual event will be the Rapture. Is is no wonder that you are so confused
The last major historical event of this age will see Jesus' second coming to Earth with his church in tow; then Jesus will stand with his own feet on the earth in Jerusalem. A great crack (earthquake?) will split east and west from the great sea (Mediterranean) and the Dead Sea before He establishes his 1,000 year Kingdom on the present earth.
The rapture is NOT the second coming. The RAPTURE will come suddenly and without warning, not at some clearly marked halfway point in the Tribulation. The "sudden surprise" of Jesus' calling UP the Church, his blood bought Bride, is the Rapture! So, and again, the rapture of the saints rising in the air to meet with our Lord is NOT his "second coming". Are you making a fake argument here, I don't remember anyone saying that a mid-trib rapture was the 2nd coming. Please reference post # or is this just something else you are making up?
In the "snatched up" rapture, Jesus will suddenly call believers (both the dead and alive) to "come up here" (in the sky) where He (physically) already is. He will collect us in the air and take us back UP to his Father's home for a week of years (7) where He has prepared a place for us in his Father's heavenly home for our Biblical wedding celebration in the present "heaven". No where in the entire bible does it say that we will be taken up for a 7 year Biblical wedding celebration... that is either just a bold face lie you tell or you AGAIN are regurgitating someone else's thoughts. which is it?
Note that our rapture call UP to heaven must occur early in the timeline of Revelation; note too that there's no mention of Jesus setting foot on the earth at that time. Also note that nothing at all is said in the Bible about the "church" between chap. 4 and the 21st chapter when Jesus and we disappear and reappear in return to earth, and it sure doesn't say anything about a mid-trib rapture! I think what the Bible does not say about man's dogmatic predictions of an "unknown/unknowable" mid-trib rapture tells us a great deal about such predictions. Is it the Church, The Muslims, The Un-Saved that show up in Revalation 7:9
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
If it is not the church, then who pray tell is it? Here is a hint... you don't need to read between the lines to get the answer, just keep reading down a few verses.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The deaths/resurrections of God's Two mid-trib Witnesses AND the Antichrist's desecration of the new Temple will be starting signals for the last 3 1/2 years of the world as we know it. Thus, those great events signal the start of the GREAT Tribulation, but they do not and cannot possibly announce the Rapture because no one will or can know when that is until the moment it happens! Saying otherwise requires reading things into scripture that simply aren't there.
Read what the Bible actually says about end times events. It should be clear that there will be at least seven years of Tribulation between the current - imminent - Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of the Lord, not with some well known 3 1/2 years of mid-trib warning. Men striving to make the "surprise" call of the Rapture - catching the Bride of Christ - up into heaven as being one with the well described (and well seen) second coming of the Lord riding back down to earth with his Bride on white horses are wrong. A "sudden rapture" coming exactly at some Tribulation midpoint simply does not fit the Book's specific words or general timeline.You say... "Read what the Bible actually says"
OK, gives us a specific verse to support your position and not just your conjecture.
You wont because there isn't specific scripture that backs this false doctrine
A "new heaven and new earth" will follow the Tribulation AND the 1,000 year/millennial kingdom, meaning Jesus' first earthly kingdom must be sometime after the Tribulation but before all of the dead of all ages have been resurrected and tried before the Lord's Great White Throne of eternal judgement.
Finally, everyone should know the great white trial won't be to determine the guilt or innocence of anyone; fact is, we're all guilty. The G.W.T. judgement will only be a final separation of sheep and goats, etc., and eternal sentencing hearings for the spiritually unclean souls who have rejected Jesus' freely offered heavenly gift to his followers. (See John 3:16-18)