My new Henry BB slugged @ .4305 I'm gonna try .429 and see if I can hear them.
My new Henry BB slugged @ .4305 I'm gonna try .429 and see if I can hear them.
"The remedy for evil men is not the abrogation of the rights of law abiding citizens. The remedy for evil men is the gallows." Thomas Jefferson
Hear What??? LOL My wife says my favorite word is 'what??". I bought a lee .430 sizer and honed it out to .4315 and it took care of my 44 issues both handgun and rifle.
I often say that boolits sized larger than the cylinder throats only raises pressure, and regardless of what they size to when assembling loads, boolits will exit the front of the cylinder at throat diameter, if throats are smaller the cylinder is merely a multi port sizing die at this point.
My parkinsonism that controls walking and balance has made me unable to work in the shop. VOTE RED * PRAY OFTEN You are welcome to message me here or send email to xlordsguitars@gmail.com.
It is a bit like the chicken and egg thing. If you are a revolver fan having a set of pin guages is invaluable. Ordering molds and size tooling before you take the measurements is a gamble. Getting the cylinder throats to groove diameter right is critical and many revolvers will need the throats honed before they will be good cast shooters. I just did all this on a .45 Colt and it turned out very well.
When i first started casting i made the error of over sizing my boolits without knowing what my throats were. I was tumble lubing and got leading and spitting. Once i started sizing to throat diameter those issued cleared right up. I can shoot humdreds of rounds now without cleaning the barrels. I determined that it is a bad idea to let the throats size down your boolits.
Last edited by Cosmic_Charlie; 04-18-2022 at 07:42 AM.
"If everyone is thinking the same thing it means someone is not thinking"
"A rat became the unit of currency"
In my flattop Blackhawk 44 special I was getting minor leading when sizing to .431. My throats range between just over .431 and just over .432. And my bore is .4292. I changed to the exact same load, but sized .430 and leading was reduced from minor to very minor-none. I was surprised because reading this forum had me of the belief I needed to first, hone my throats to a uniform size (of .4325 for my gun) then size to that diameter. I’m sure many members have experienced good results that way, but that’s not always the rule. My gun does better when sized just over groove diameter. It turns out there are several respected members here that size the same way I do, it’s just they are quiet about it most of the time so they don’t have to defend their position against the group. I bet there is a bunch of people that size to throats and never tried groove or slightly over just because they read it. Then they have problems and wonder why.
Last edited by Bazoo; 04-18-2022 at 03:01 PM.
I have a 44mag RH and then after got a 1894 Marlin . I started off with .429 in the RH and seen how my groups was not like I wanted . I got a size die for .430 and my groups close up and better . I try them in the Marlin and the groups was not bad, then later I got the .431 die and trying it in the Marlin first and big improvement on the groups and then trying in the RH and got the same with improvement . So I stay with the .431 with both. I know I cold go .432 with the Marlin , I will just stick with the .431. Just to show the OP what the different in size have done .
Life Member of NRA,NTA,DAV ,ITA. Also member of FTA,CBA
Go .431". When you apply pressure to the base of that .431" bullet, it will swage down. This was wisdom from Walt Melander when he was with us and running NEI./beagle
diplomacy is being able to say, "nice doggie" until you find a big rock.....
Good to hear from you beagle! Missed your sage musings! Tim
My SBH likes a .431" and though my Henry SS sluged at .432" 431" shoots great out of it. They do bump up upon firing. Just swabbed out my 45 Colt Bisley after putting 100 rounds through it and it came clean with just patches and solvent. Throats at .4525 and boolits at .452. 20/1 alloy and simple lube.
"If everyone is thinking the same thing it means someone is not thinking"
"A rat became the unit of currency"
I've got an 1894 Marlin .4315 barrel and was terrible with hard cast .429 bullets, light target loads. Once I used .432 with a softer alloy it shoots very tight groups. I suspect the.429 bullets might shoot better with heavy loads, obturate better. The load can make a huge difference on the accuracy.
Many years back, right after the article was published in the gun rag on sizing to the cylinder throats [Venturino?] and everyone jumped on that band wagon including me. For many years I had just been sizing my 44 Magnum bullets of various styles, thousands of them, at .429 and had been blissful with the accuracy and no leading out of several 44 magnum rifles and revolvers. I also shot thousands of commercial cast 240 gr SWCs sized at .429. After reading the article and finding I was dealing with throats of .431 to .234. I was convinced sizing to throat diameter would turn my very accurate loads to lasers. The hard part back then was to find a mould that would cast bullets that large. After some searching a fellow loaned me an old Lyman Ideal single cavity that would cast a #2 alloyed 429421 at .434. I also had access to a Ransome Rest with appropriate inserts for the 4 revolvers to be used [S&W M29, Ruger OM BH, Ruger Super BH and a Hawes Western Martial]. All the revolvers had groove diameters of .429 - .4295. I had also accumulated a .430, a .431, a .432 and a .433 H&I dies. The .434 bullets were as cast. Lube used was Javelina.
I loaded up a bunch or "Keith" loads [22 gr H 2400] under the various sized bullets. The group testing was done at 50 yards with each group being 12 shots, twice around the cylinder. Each revolver had groups test with all the sized bullets; .429, .430, .431, .432, .433 and .434. The "on target" results were revealing. The bullets sized .430 gave the best group in all 4 revolvers. The .429 sized bullets gave the second best groups in 3 of the 4 revolvers with the exception of the Hawes revolver with the .434 throats. The .431 sized bullets began opening the groups up in the same 3 revolvers and gave the second best accuracy in the Hawes. The bullets sized .432, .433 and .434 produced groups twice that of the .429 and .430. We were dry brushing the bores between each test and noticed leading was building up in the barrel throats. The leading was removed before further testing.
After all that testing, which took the better part of a day at the range, we were in a quandary as to why the bullets that "fit" the throats didn't give the best accuracy or the "great" accuracy we were expecting. Later that spring when the snow had melted, I recovered a lot of those test bullets. What I found was many of them were severely elongated and misshaped. I also measured the diameter of many of them. That was when I discovered lubed bullets will ride a layer of lube in the bore and come out the muzzle .002 - .005 smaller than groove diameter of the barrel. The worst misshaped bullets recovered were of .424 - .425 diameter. It was also noted many of the bullet bases were not square with the axis of the bullet nor was the SWC portion.
The assumption was made and verified in later testing and sizing it down that much under acceleration did nothing good for the bullets accuracy. This was also verified sometime later running the same type of test using several M1917 and M25 S&W revolvers. Also, with sever 38 SPL revolvers. We consistently found using bullets sized over .02 larger than the barrel groove diameter consistently gave poorer accuracy.
Bottom line is I have since used bullets sized not over .002 than the barrel groove diameter. My standard size for 38/357s is .358. In my 41 Iuse .410. In my 44-40s I use .429. In my 44 magnums I use .430 and in my 45 cals (revolver, semi's and rifles) I use .452. They always give me the best accuracy and no leading with my own cast bullets and loads.
I appreciate the fact that others say sizing to the throats miraculously an improves accuracy and prevents leading. Perhaps for them it does. However, through years of shooting thousands of "undersized" cast bullets in revolvers and extensive casting I have not found improvement unless the bullet is not sized more than .002 over barrel groove diameter.
Anecdote, back in my PPC days all the "big guns" used Federal Match 38 SP LHBWCs, particularly at the 50 yard line. I got a partial box of that excellent load to duplicate. I took 10 rounds, chucked them in my mini lathe, turned off the crimp and then used an inertial puller to remove the bullets. I was amazed at the used and abused look of those bullets and that their diameter ran .355-.356. Obviously, they were .002+ smaller than the cylinder throats of the custom PPC revolvers they won all the Gold with! No matter what I tried, even using custom swaged bullets at .357 I could never equal the accuracy of that federal load. I fired 3 into the bullet trap at the crime lab and lo and behold, The bullets came out of my Power Custom PPC revolver with a .357 barrel groove diameter at .355 diameter!
Larry Gibson
“Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
― Nikola Tesla
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |