Folks, some other thoughts.
Just mine don’t claim divine interpretations.
I think that perhaps God was teaching additional things as well.
Human sacrifice was quite common in those days.
NOT making Abraham follow through, and providing a lesser sacrifice not only proved Gods provision but differentiated HIM from the local gods.
I don't claim "divine interpretations" but I will claim deep knowledge of Scripture. I have spent the last 53 years as a student and teacher of the Bible. If a fellow doesn't know the difference between fact and opinion by that time, there is no hope for him.
There are some threads that run throughout all of Scripture, both NT and OT. Abrahamic Faith is one such powerful thread which forms the gold standard for understanding Judeo-Christian concept of faith.
Lots of folks opine and guess and some folks know. Scriptural truth is not elastic or Playdough that folks can mold and form into whatever they wish. If we wish to claim Biblical faith, then we must first know what that is.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
[The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze
Yes, Abraham had other children. The "promise" passed through Issac the child of Sarah and Abraham. A study of the OT will show this "promise" is reissued several times. It is easy to lose the ball in the high weeds and get bogged down in what if and maybe so, and could have been. The main thing, the ball to watch, is the "promise" and the nature of Abrahamic faith. These things take on a life and are carried though Scripture in it's entirety. The rest of the stuff is left by the roadside. Fun to speculate, but nothing there upon which to build a redemptive faith.
Preachers love to put a truth in a morter and grind it into as many fragments as possible. They get more sermons that way and seem much smarter to find these hidden truths which most often are not relevant to the main point of the truth. But, I digress....
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but two things: one, how does what I said contradict anything you or scripture states?
Two, you speak as if I have brought heresy to the table and that 53 years of your studying has closed the understanding of the cannon.
Pharisees were similar.
I will not get into a chest or Bible thumping match with a self proclaimed expert.
There are many historical contextual clues to understanding scripture, all I did was comment on one.
Be blessed.
Say What? You did not contradict anything I said, nor did you being heresy to the table. In fact nothing I said was in response to anything you said. I am known to take opportunities to enlarge conservations and take the conservation else where. That is what I did in this case. I certainly had no intention to "straighten you out" as I didn't see anything that needed to be straightened.
I am truly sorry that I offended you for that was not my intent. I just thought I was talking to a fellow on the same wave length as I, and things would be understood in the context of such a conversation. I committed the sin of assumption and that is my bad. However, it the truth be told, your reply contained several false assumptions about me. But let's not push that issue and go our separate ways in peace.
Last edited by Char-Gar; 03-16-2022 at 06:01 PM.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
This is a difficult question, but one at the very center of our faith.
Remember the "Forbidden Fruit" in the garden of Eden was "Knowledge of good and evil." Rephrased, a "Moral compass" that operates independently of God's.
Neither can we see the bigger picture of the future effect, nor can we see what's already been going on outside of our concern.
King Saul could not bring himself to commit genocide against the Amalekites, and it was considered wickedness. Note that he later decided it was perfectly OK to commit genocide against his own people. There's man's moral compass at work.
So, how about the present, for example? We have soft hearted groups rushing aid into war torn areas, including right into the middle of wars... Yet the food and resources are stolen by the armies and it PROLONGS the suffering of the innocent because it enables the war to continue indefinitely, rather than forcing an end when one side starves out.
No , I would not kill my child or any other member of my family . I'd just have to suffer whatever comes from my disobedience.
Grumpy Old Man With A Gun....... Do Not Touch !!
Abraham had been promised his seed would come through Isaac as the sands of the sea. Abraham had enough faith to believe in his sons resurection if he followed God's direct command.
Abraham had the faith to foresee resurection and we have to have the faith to believe in Christ's resurection.
God can not ask us to offer a sacrifice, because Christ's sacrifice is for all and final.
Correct.
Few people seem to grasp that Adam and Eve were drawn to that "fruit" because they wanted to decide what was "good or evil" - i.e., right or wrong - for themselves, not just trust and obey their heavenly father in faith that He knows what's best for his children. And that rebellion is still the starting motivation of those who know about but choose to reject God.
Childish stubborn "smart" people effectively stamp their feet and tell God, "Hey, I'm all grown up and really smart myself now so I know what's right and wrong for me better than you, therefore you're not going to be the boss of ME!" That's the core of what spiritual naysayers think they're "thinking". But ... it's some really dumb thinking, even for a child.
* This world is a mess, please come quickly Lord Jesus!
Last edited by 1hole; 03-25-2022 at 12:33 PM.
Wasn't it Hitler's SS, or one of Stalin's units, that had recruits raise, train, and bond with a puppy. . .only to order them to shoot their new best friend in the head to ensure that the graduate would obey orders from "the authority" without question? Seems that Abraham was a likely model, and a worthy warning for us to beware of "true believers" of any stripe, as they are just an unthinking tool crafted to serve another's purpose.
As a non-believing / highly doubting sort, God actually showing up and asking ANYTHING of us is one of my main sticking points, but if he did, and that was what was asked, I'd have a few questions:
1. Why does God need to test my faith? He's GOD - doesn't he KNOW?
2. What would be my standing in the community if my reaction was ANYTHING but telling God he could go perform an anatomical impossibility with himself?
3. If "The Plan" requires my child to die, would not a humane God be able to come up with a triggerman who would come to the party with less angst? Cancer, a brain aneurysm, failed brakes on a city bus, a mugger in the night? Take your pick.
4. In the "Ha! Ha! Just kidding!" scenario of Abraham, I see a couple likely outcomes:
(a.) Abraham's faith is going to be severely shaken, and he'll be left wondering if continuing to follow the sick Reichsmarshall who asked him to shoot his puppy is really what he wants to be doing.
(b.) Abraham's kid is going to have a very hard time trusting his dad ever again, and is likely to give Satan a call, opening the conversation with "Tell me more about this revolution of yours - that God guy is NUTS!"
In this scenario, God is asking you to do something that God himself programmed you to reject as WRONG. To be fair, I'm not sailing from the same dock as your theological boat, let alone riding in it, but I'd have little use for such a malevolent lying/trickster bastard. "Moving in mysterious ways" is not for me.
It IS a good point of discussion.
WWJMBD?
In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.
Can God ask too much?
He gave us Biden-Harris, of course he can
He doesn’t ask too much but sometimes it sure seems like it.
Spiritual things are spiritually perceived. We believers know and see things from inside the family of God so we have a totally different spiritual insight and perspective on what's important from you.
Relax, both Isaak and your puppy are quite safe. God is making you a very nice eternal life offer at this time but he sure isn't going to ask you for anything. The choice of accepting God's gift of eternal heaven by way of Jesus' atoning blood sacrifice of himself for payment of your sin penalty - and not Isaak or a ram - in your place is your's alone. (See John 3:16-18 and think about it carefully, making the wrong decision has horrific long term consequences.)As a non-believing / highly doubting sort, God actually showing up and asking ANYTHING of us is one of my main sticking points, but if he did, and that was what was asked, I'd have a few questions:
1. Why does God need to test my faith? He's GOD - doesn't he KNOW?
2. What would be my standing in the community if my reaction was ANYTHING but telling God he could go perform an anatomical impossibility with himself?
3. If "The Plan" requires my child to die, would not a humane God be able to come up with a triggerman who would come to the party with less angst? Cancer, a brain aneurysm, failed brakes on a city bus, a mugger in the night? Take your pick.
4. In the "Ha! Ha! Just kidding!" scenario of Abraham, I see a couple likely outcomes:
(a.) Abraham's faith is going to be severely shaken, and he'll be left wondering if continuing to follow the sick Reichsmarshall who asked him to shoot his puppy is really what he wants to be doing.
You have a massively wrong interpretation of what was happening on Mt. Moriah that day. But, skipping a lot of important stuff, even you would have to agree that God obviously had no plan for Isaac to be sacrificed so your specious speculations have no meaning.
So, what was in play that day?
Well, it's clear to me that God gave those two men absolute assurance that trusting in Him gives his followers spiritual comfort even in the worst of life's situations. AND, by rational extension, that blessed "peace like a river" truth applies to the rest of his followers as well. It applies to me and I know a lot of other old people but I know of no Christian who fears death!
Nuts. Abraham's grown kid had to have known the stories about himself since infancy and obviously trusted God's future promises. Thus, Isaac had the same level of trust in the God who confirmed exactly the same spiritual lesson to both of them.(b.) Abraham's kid is going to have a very hard time trusting his dad ever again, and is likely to give Satan a call, opening the conversation with "Tell me more about this revolution of yours - that God guy is NUTS!"
And, again, it should be clear even to people like you that the spiritual example was made and God has never asked that of anyone else. And even then He clearly had no intention of allowing Isaak to be slain so your well thought out speculations are in vain.In this scenario, God is asking you to do something that God himself programmed you to reject as WRONG.
Yeah, to piggyback on things said before, sometimes what He sets before you with can seem overwhelming. We get comfortable with where ever we are and stepping out of that "place" can be scary. People can freeze up, not taking any action 'cause like Yogi Berra said, you got to be very careful if you don't know where you're going, because you might not get there.
But it's a choice God is giving you. And like Berra said about coming to a fork in the road, you should take it.
Have faith in God and the scary turns into something else.
From the title question I did not expect Abraham's experience to be the subject. My initial response is that God promised that His strength is sufficient for us. Are you calling him a liar?
I identify with the father who approached Christ on behalf of his child. "Lord, I believe, help Thou my unbelief."
Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
"I don't have hobbies - I'm developing a robust post-apocalyptic skill set"
I may be discharged and retired but I'm sure I did not renounce the oath that I solemnly swore!
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