What's a better deer rifle? .357 Magnum or 45 Long Colt?

[Lloyd Smale]

Sorry but have to disagree. The .357 and the .45LC are both adequate deer cartridges, but when you look at the energy retention of the. 357 at 100 yards, I wouldn't consider a .357 beyond 100yards for deer. For the same reason I wouldn't try to drive a fence post with a 6 oz ball peen hammer.

A 287 gr Ranch Dog still retains over 1000 ft lbs at 150 yards. So I think the .45LC the better choice.

i agree. Lots of hopla posted about 357s thats just bs. its not a 3030 and never will be. ESPECIALLY if your talking out past a 100yards. Now 45vs357. This is a cast bullet forum so im assuming your taking cast bullets. If so bullet diameter means more then velocity and so does weight. Ask yourself if youd rather have a 357 shooting a 158 at 1800 or a 45 colt shooting a 300 at 1400 if a big bear was after you. Ya deer arent bear. You dont have to point that out but is sure shows which is more powerful Now if you loading your 357 with good jacketed bullets and im talking deer not bear, the 357 can at a 100 yards or less give the 3030 a run for its money. Truth be told id take the good old 3030 with some 150 corelocks over either of them. It does as well at close range and better out past a 100 yards. I dont know what loading manual some look at but a 158 at 1800 with a much poorer bc then a 150 out of a 3030 at 2200 sure doesnt look like an even match tom. Thats 400 fps. twice the difference between a 3006 and a 300 mag and with a bc that as bad as a piece of 2x4. comparing the 357 to the 3030 is about as silly as comparing the 357 to the 45 colt. Dont know if the original poster really didnt know or if he just wanted to start a discussion but if youve actually used cast bullets to kill things we all know what the answer is. numbers dont kill bullets do.

[JoeJames]

i agree. Lots of hopla posted about 357s thats just bs. its not a 3030 and never will be. ESPECIALLY if your talking out past a 100yards. Now 45vs357. This is a cast bullet forum so im assuming your taking cast bullets. If so bullet diameter means more then velocity and so does weight. Ask yourself if youd rather have a 357 shooting a 158 at 1800 or a 45 colt shooting a 300 at 1400 if a big bear was after you. Ya deer arent bear. You dont have to point that out but is sure shows which is more powerful Now if you loading your 357 with good jacketed bullets and im talking deer not bear, the 357 can at a 100 yards or less give the 3030 a run for its money. Truth be told id take the good old 3030 with some 150 corelocks over either of them. It does as well at close range and better out past a 100 yards. I dont know what loading manual some look at but a 158 at 1800 with a much poorer bc then a 150 out of a 3030 at 2200 sure doesnt look like an even match tom. Thats 400 fps. twice the difference between a 3006 and a 300 mag and with a bc that as bad as a piece of 2x4. comparing the 357 to the 3030 is about as silly as comparing the 357 to the 45 colt. Dont know if the original poster really didnt know or if he just wanted to start a discussion but if youve actually used cast bullets to kill things we all know what the answer is. numbers dont kill bullets do.

All in all, that is one reason I carry a Ruger BH 41/2" in 44 Special with .430" 240 grain cast swc's running @894 fps when I am walking around my place. Another reason is because it is so dern accurate.

[mnewcomb59]

Truth be told id take the good old 3030 with some 150 corelocks over either of them. It does as well at close range and better out past a 100 yards. I dont know what loading manual some look at but a 158 at 1800 with a much poorer bc then a 150 out of a 3030 at 2200 sure doesnt look like an even match tom. Thats 400 fps.

Just a couple things to add : The difference is more like 100 fps between 30-30 and 357. 158 gr with 19 gr Lil' Gun goes 2050 fps. Our old stack of 150 Core Lokts go 2160 fps in the 20 inch carbine. My bullet has a BC very similar to the 30-30 because it is a LFN BC .18, not a SWC which is dramatically less aerodynamic bc .11. The 30-30 BC is .21. The 30-30 has about 5% more energy at the muzzle and 10% more energy at 200 yards than the 357. But, like you pointed out above, bullet diameter dramatically affects killing power. For a hypothetical 200 yard shot, would you rather be hit by a round nose 30 cal at 1400 fps or a flat meplat from a 36 cal at 1300 fps? One is going to make a wider wound and the other will make a narrow wound smaller than a pencil.

Also like you pointed out above, bullet diameter and weight mean more than velocity. Why would you want the 30-30 over the 45 Colt for things bigger than deer? The 45 doesn't shoot as flat but it has way more killing power than the 30-30. The bullet is more than twice as heavy, wider and has more energy. Any way you slice it, TKO, FPE, Momentum- the 45 Colt is more gun than the 30-30. 1500 fpe 30 cal vs 1700 fpe 45 cal is no brainer for killing power.

Outdoorfan - I use the NOE 154 WFN with the small meplat and long ogive. This bullet loads longer than 1.59" but it feeds in multiple Rossis that I have tried it in. NOE lists the BC as .21 but I think it is a little optimistic. It is definitely the most aerodynamic 158 that I have found and it shoots great.

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop...1-5-cavity-gc/

One final thing to add - pretty much nobody is able to get full power loads in the 30-30 unless they are running a pretty hard alloy. Most guys on here are using 30 grains of powder to shoot a hard, skinny 150-170 grain bullet at less than 2000 fps. The average 30-30 cast load uses 50% more powder to shoot a bullet 100-200 fps slower than my 357 hunting loads. The 357 rifle compares very favorably to 30-30 jacketed loads but in general shoots 200 fps faster than 30-30 lead loads while using less powder and having a mild muzzle blast.

[outdoorfan]

Outdoorfan - I use the NOE 154 WFN with the small meplat and long ogive. This bullet loads longer than 1.59" but it feeds in multiple Rossis that I have tried it in. NOE lists the BC as .21 but I think it is a little optimistic. It is definitely the most aerodynamic 158 that I have found and it shoots great.

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop...1-5-cavity-gc/

That's the same, pretty much, as the 360-640 that I use. I've tested BC at .16. The C358-180 (Lars design) is also .16 due to the wider meplat.

[mnewcomb59]

That's the same, pretty much, as the 360-640 that I use. I've tested BC at .16. The C358-180 (Lars design) is also .16 due to the wider meplat.

You should try this one! I will send you some if you want. This meplat is smaller than the 360640 and the ogive is longer so the BC has to be a little better.

[outdoorfan]

You should try this one! I will send you some if you want. This meplat is smaller than the 360640 and the ogive is longer so the BC has to be a little better.

I'll pm you. Thanks

[Lloyd Smale]

tko does little and neither does energy. A cast 45 colt will put most of its energy in the dirt on the other side of the deer. If you are one that believes in energy or shocking power do the old trick i was told about many years ago. Hang a 100 lb sack of corn on your clothes line pole and shoot it with a 300 wby and what will you see? A bag that barely moves. THe 3030 kills better then it should because it is the only round (that i know of) that has a bullet specificaly made for its velocity. It expands every time and causes massive internal damage. Ive shot deer with a 500 linebaugh and had them walk away like they werent hit. Why? Because it punched a clean hole through the deer and probably the tree behind it. Ask John Linebaugh his experience with bison with a 500. He shot one and it kept eating grass for a couple minutes and tipped over dead. It didnt even walk let alone run. Ive shot MANY deer with cast bullets out of 44s 45s 475s and 500s. I know exactly what happens when i shoot. Ive also probably shot more deer with high powered rifles using jacketed bullets then anyone here and pretty much know what they do. MATH DOES NOT KILL. Ive never shot a deer with a 357 anything and probably never will. But have shot deer with the 358 and 356 at much higher velocity using both cast and jacketed and I was never impressed with those using cast bullets. Now talk a 44 or 45 and you have an argument as long as your talking out to a 100 yards. those bullets just cause more damage. But even they if i was honest a jacketed bullet works better for deer sized game. Cast comes into its own when DEAP penetration is an advantage. Not saying a cast bullet wont kill a deer. Ive shot many deer bear and pigs myself with them and even a number of bison. 357 lever guns are fun. I have a marlin myself and its a ball to shoot. Especially with 38s but if im going to kill an animal i feel i owe it to the animal to leave the marginal stuff at home. Ive got nothing to prove to anyone.

[outdoorfan]

But have shot deer with the 358 and 356 at much higher velocity using both cast and jacketed and I was never impressed with those using cast bullets.

Lloyd, I don't understand how you were displeased with the 358 and 356. Can you expound? Velocity, bullet weight, alloy/bhn, etc?

I thought these were great, and I have had good limited success with the Whelen with a 250 grain cast bullet at 2350 fps.

[Lloyd Smale]

they are great rounds outdoors. Couple of the best deer bear and pig slappers ever made. But with jacketed bullets. Ive killed quite a few animals with cast bullets. So i wont tell you what some internet expert said or what some gun writer said. ill tell you what ive seen with my own two eyes and that is that i always preach that cast bullets for big game start at 35 cal and even at 35 are marginal. Real killing cast bullets start with the first number being a 4. Yup there will always be some guy that will claim he killed one or two just fine with a 357 but kill 25 and come back to me and give me your opinion. Some will say that 2000 fps makes up the differnce between a 44 mag at 1300. I say thats complete bs. We have done LOTS of penetration testing and if anything penetration suffers at anything over 1200 and goes to hell in a handbasket at over 1400. Ive seen bullets dive right out of the penetration box after only a couple inches of penetration. Jacketed kill with shorter wider wound channels. Cast doesnt give the wider wound channel so it relys more on a smaller longer wound channel to do its damage. If cast bullets were superior in rifles wed see factory ammo switching to cast bullets because there cheaper to make. I dont fool much with cast in rifles anymore. Other then plinking ammo in the 357 and hunting ammo in the 44mag and 45 colt, 4570 444 ect. But i dont roar any of them. All are kept under 1400 fps. Only long guns under 35 cal i cast for are the 300 bo, 300hamr plinking loads and i do have a stash of 223 bullets that i never really had any luck with for accuracy but i guess if shtf theyd allow my guns to go bang.

[outdoorfan]

Lloyd, with the 35's, did you try all sorts of different combinations, or was it mostly medium hard or harder?

My limited results were with a hard shank, soft nose. 35 Whelen kills at 25-300 yards were really good. But only killed maybe 6-8 deer, although I don't really remember exactly how many.

Just trying to learn from other people's experience in what in this case didn't work for them (you).

I also have seen how penetration really is decreased as velocity goes up.

Thanks

[boommer]

45 LC hands down in modern guns with hand loads it will smoke a 357 mag all day long !! apples to apples modern guns and loads

[Lloyd Smale]

Lloyd, with the 35's, did you try all sorts of different combinations, or was it mostly medium hard or harder?

My limited results were with a hard shank, soft nose. 35 Whelen kills at 25-300 yards were really good. But only killed maybe 6-8 deer, although I don't really remember exactly how many.

Just trying to learn from other people's experience in what in this case didn't work for them (you).

I also have seen how penetration really is decreased as velocity goes up.

Thanks

Problem with soft alloys is accuracy goes south when velocity get high. Now a two part bullet might work but its hard to get consistant performance out of them. I guess i think of it like this. Ive been a caster for almost 50 years. Ive tried about all of it. Ive shot game with about all of it. I dont need to experiment or prove my bullets are effective. I about know what works and what doesnt on deer. Personaly if im going to harvest a living animal that might suffer if my bullet doesnt perform ive lost that need to brag i used my own cast bullet. A box of jacketed bullets costs what? Maybe 40 bucks. For 40 bucks you get a 100 bullets so lets just say the ability to kill 40 deer. So a buck a pop. Thats nothing. There are times that cast bullets just make sense. They in my opinion are superior to cast if your going after something bigger then say 500 lbs with larger bone but im not doing that with my 356 anyway. Those are the once in a lifetime big dollar hunts that im going to take the proper tool to the battle with. I want to KNOW that if a big elk or moose steps out at 300 yards i have enough gun and a proper bullet for the job. Like i said cast bullets work great on deer pigs black bear ect too if you follow the rule "first number should at least be a 4" Ive killed rabbits and turkeys and grouse with my 357s. But ive got better guns for big game. So why would i bother trying to make one into something it isnt when i can enjoy it for what it is.

[CTI1USNRET]

45 LC hands down in modern guns with hand loads it will smoke a 357 mag all day long !! apples to apples modern guns and loads

357 mag vs 45 Colt. I'll go with the 45 Colt. ... but ...

Dead is dead. I have nothing bad to say about the 357 Mag in a lever gun.

The 45 Colt can be loaded almost to the level of a lite 45-70 Govt. It can easily take an American Bison and anything less.

Love my 20" Rossi R92 'El Jefe' lever action in 45 Colt. Using the factory buckhorn sights it's easy to hit the steel deer at 200 yards with my handloads.

[farmbif]

that 45 colt load your after 255gr at 2000 fps, I'm not sure but maybe if you had a modern 1892 with a 24" and 24 grains of #9 or 27 grains of 4100/enforcer. is about as fast as you might get that slug going. I have no idea what velocity you might get. I called it quits at 21 grains of 4227 in my Rossi 92 45colt with a 265 grain 454360 right at 1200fps and figured if I want a 250 grain slug to go faster I'd do it with a 44 mag rifle or get 2000fps accomplished with no problem in the 444

[r80rt]

Deer are thin skinned, light boned and easy to kill. A .357 does the job just fine, a.45 works just fine too. People kill them with bows and arrows all the time, jeeze.

[mnewcomb59]

that 45 colt load your after 255gr at 2000 fps, I'm not sure but maybe if you had a modern 1892 with a 24" and 24 grains of #9 or 27 grains of 4100/enforcer. is about as fast as you might get that slug going. I have no idea what velocity you might get. I called it quits at 21 grains of 4227 in my Rossi 92 45colt with a 265 grain 454360 right at 1200fps and figured if I want a 250 grain slug to go faster I'd do it with a 44 mag rifle or get 2000fps accomplished with no problem in the 444

I got two pounds of AA 11FS and worked up some loads with it. No chrono yet but 28.5 gr with a 454190 GC was the hardest kicking thing I ever shot through my Marlin. After about 50 rounds of that my forearm tip tenon was bent and pulling out of the dovetail and the magazine tube pin near the muzzle beat its dovetail until the dovetail deformed. I had to scrounge some used parts on ebay and just got the gun reassembled. I am still curious but I haven't decided if I am gonna load some more because Marlin parts are sold out everywhere. I bet I was shooting that 260 grain bullet at 2000 fps.

[jreidthompson1]

11 FS ruger load data 7.26 inch barrel from

https://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-co..._data_11FS.pdf


45 COLT 30,000 PSI - HIGH PRESSURE LOADS
Barrel: 7.26” ¦ Twist: 1-16” ¦ Primer: REM 2 ½ ¦ Bullet Diameter: 0.452”
Case: REM ¦ Max Case Length: 1.285” ¦ Trim Length: 1.275”
ACCURATE NO. 11FS
255 (L) LC SWC 24.2 1,287 28.4 1,549 29,041 1.604
300 (L) LC FP 19.4 1,146 22.8 1,353 29,387 1.566
325 (L) MBW SWCGCDC 17.1 1,031 20.2 1,223 28,984 1.570
335 (L) CP WLNGC 19.7 1,124 23.2 1,317 29,976 1.665
360 (L) CP WLNGC 17.9 1,059 21.1 1,231 29,751 1.670
395 (L) CP WLNGC 15.5 954 18.2 1,120 29,897 1.670

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

[Good Cheer]

Just another .45 Colt load.
Touching up the nose with the Forster hollow pointer would make it pop open further away than I could shoot with it.

[Jeff Michel]

Nice looking bullet, what rifle are you using it in? OAL?
Thanks,
Jeff

[pmer]

I'd say mnewcomb59 has really nailed it for getting the most out of a 357 in a carbine. I have one in a 16" Rossi but don't have anything cast hard enough to take that level of impact velocity.

Would the people who are poo - pooing the 357 In a long barrel also be critical of the 300 Blackout?

I've seen Lloyd sing praise of a all copper 125 grain hp in the BO.