Yeah, well if I knew how to apply what you said here to something I could buy it would be great. Or, better yet, if you gave me an example of something I was more familiar with. So what I'm saying here is...if I wanted to try infrared curing in my basement...how would I do it without a Fluxcapacitor?Originally Posted by popper
[
What are you hoping to get out of an IR curing oven that you can't on a plain 'ol house hold oven? I have coated and cooked about 800,000 projectiles with an oven that i got off the in-laws years ago. For me, it works very well, IR seems to be very effective for curing and keeping the colours right, and doing it quickly.
Speeding things up. I'm trying it out on some higher speed rifle bullets and I'm doing more coats. I would appreciate anything that speeds up the process as I'm adding more processing.
[
Fair enough, that makes sense. I do 3 coats on all my cast, i cook for 12 minutes at 200c with two trays, each tray is around 1,200 x 125 grain 9mm. You can lower the cooking time if you cook less per batch, as long as you reach curing temperature for long enough. allowing them to cool before you do the next coat while cooking more.
If i'm trying to be efficient, i coat and let everything dry. I then cook in batches, laying the hot cured projectiles on a bench to cool, i keep adding them to separate spots and eventually the first cooked batch is good for a second coat, i coat it and let it dry while cooking the first batch, eventually i have cooked all the first lot and the next batch has had time to dry and ready to bake. I keep going till everything is done, or i have had enough for the day.
It's a process that takes a little thought of how to lay them so you can get the cooler ones to coat and not pick up the hot ones that evaporate the acetone too fast.
As for the extra coats for rifle, have you done any experiments with it to show how well the extra coats do to prevent leading? and how many coats is enough? this would be a very interesting project. I may give it a go of putting a silly amount of coats on some cast to test, just cause why not? Yet they may need sizing after a few coats or it may be too tough to size at the end. Each coat added half a thou when i measured it.
I've fallen in love with this process. Almost all of my lubrisizers, four of them, sit unused in a box. The only one that lives on is a Star/Magma that I have powered with air and a heated base that's run through a PID, and I only use it for my BigLube black powder revolver bullets and some other oddballs. I also have a million dies for it, plus I'm too proud of the setup to kill it. All the RCBS/Lyman goop machines were just gathering dust and goop.
Every mold I buy I try to get sans lube groove. Ever since I discovered that these things feed through a bullet feeder just as well as a jacketed bullet I was pretty much done with lubing pistol bullets. Previously I only used cast bullets in pistols and bigbore, low-velocity rifles, read 45/70, 45/100, 450 Nitro Express.
However, I have an affection for a couple of surplus rifles, like my MK III Ross in 303 British, and my M39 Finnish Mosin in 7,62x54R Russian. I've started shooting cast bullets out of them using gas checks and coated with Hi-Tek. I've gotten up to around 1750 fps, according to my LabRadar. Previously, I couldn't even consider shooting cast bullets out of these rifles. The leading was so severe, at any velocity, it was almost like applying a lead paste to the bore. Accuracy isn't amazing but it's not horrible either and I'm getting better at tuning it in but most of all, it's not leaving half the bullet in the barrel.
One of the semi-major pains in my butt now is crimping on gas checks without using a lubrisizer. No one seems to have a tool that does that. NOE has a widget but it doesn't actually crimp it on. It just sorta squares it up. It seems everyone assumes you use a lubrisizer to put on a gas check. I can always tell by my group size when the damn gas check has come off! It's a long story on how I know but I found a way. It involves the LabRadar. I need a tool that allows me to crimp on a gas check squarely and quickly every time without having to hold my tongue just right.
So, to put an end to this ballistic rendition of War and Peace. I'd like to speed up the process in any way I can as it seems that what works best is thinner coats and more of them. So if I can put in an infrared raygun that speeds up the cycle without giving me skin cancer or costing a fortune...just point me at it.
[
Hey Nutz,
I've been coating rifle bullets with this stuff for about six years. It's a hobby for me so speed isn't necessarily a priority. I coat 308s for the most part in rifle. Running them at about 2600fps according to Lab Radar. Have pushed them over 2700 fps with no leading but they are not as accurate. I've pushed 223 and three coats over 3000fps with no leading. I have used Hi Tek on 223, 380, 45-70, 45 auto, 44 mag, 357 mag, 9mm and what ever else I cast. And by the way my sporterized .303 Enfield loves them. I don't shoot it much. Dad's old gun.
I started out putting three coats and still do on rifle bullets. My idea back when I started was to make a jacket out of it. But too thick is a mistake. It can cause flaking on smash test. Three thin coats are good and I have run one medium coat in the .308 with no leading. But recommendation is two to three. If your one of those guys that just has to have the color right it will take that many coats.
I use Lee sizing dies to put on my gas checks and have always been happy with them.
With all of the new casters coming after the recent ammo shortages I'll bet those lube sizers would bring a pretty penny on Ebay.
Good groups are not a problem with Hi Tek. Some use it in competition. The following are 308 five shot groups at 100 yards. My Marlin 45-70 will group 2-2 1/2" at 100 yards. 200 yard shots with 308 are in the 2-3" zone.
While I work at it, it is by God's grace that it happens. So it is best I ask him what, how and when before I start..
Have you seen what speed you can get from your .223 and .308 without gas checks? I'd like to try my hand at casting some of them , but would rather not need to gas check, but i think to get any real speed, i have no choice but to do so with a harder alloy.Hey Nutz,
I've been coating rifle bullets with this stuff for about six years. It's a hobby for me so speed isn't necessarily a priority. I coat 308s for the most part in rifle. Running them at about 2600fps according to Lab Radar. Have pushed them over 2700 fps with no leading but they are not as accurate. I've pushed 223 and three coats over 3000fps with no leading. I have used Hi Tek on 223, 380, 45-70, 45 auto, 44 mag, 357 mag, 9mm and what ever else I cast. And by the way my sporterized .303 Enfield loves them. I don't shoot it much. Dad's old gun.
I started out putting three coats and still do on rifle bullets. My idea back when I started was to make a jacket out of it. But too thick is a mistake. It can cause flaking on smash test. Three thin coats are good and I have run one medium coat in the .308 with no leading. But recommendation is two to three. If your one of those guys that just has to have the color right it will take that many coats.
I use Lee sizing dies to put on my gas checks and have always been happy with them.
With all of the new casters coming after the recent ammo shortages I'll bet those lube sizers would bring a pretty penny on Ebay.
Good groups are not a problem with Hi Tek. Some use it in competition. The following are 308 five shot groups at 100 yards. My Marlin 45-70 will group 2-2 1/2" at 100 yards. 200 yard shots with 308 are in the 2-3" zone.
The only experience I have with no gas checks in the 308 is once I was asked a question much like yours by a guy thinking about using Hi Tek back a few years ago. I think his question was could he shoot full house loads with Hi Tek in his service rifle with no gas check. I loaded some up that didn't have gas checks but had the groove for one. Didn't have a way to measure speed back then but loads should have been around 2700 fps. They did leave a small amount of lead in the barrel. One of only two times I have had leading with Hi Tek. I answered his question. I'm not sure if the cause of the leading was gas cutting on the butt of the bullet. But thought that might have been the cause since those bullets were around 17BHN and that cut on the base for the gas check could have kept it from sealing. I was going to go back and visit this again with some 12-14BHN and slow them down to 2000 fps but just never got around to it. Don't have any experience with 223 but would think it would be a disaster to shoot 3000 fps with no gas check. Maybe 2000 fps? But you can do that with grease/wax lubes I'm told. Don't think anything over 14 BHN would work because of the gas cutting. But that is just an opinion. And those are like noses, everybody has one.
I understand the wish to not use gas checks. They are one more step that has to be done. You have to have at least one coat on the bullet before putting it through the sizing die. I have actually done so many on the 223 that my thumb was sore. Kind of like loading a bunch of loads by hand in handgun clips.
I don't use gas checks in the 45-70. Lead is usually about 12 BHN. But that is a totally different story than 308. I have a theory that smaller diameter bullets are harder to protect than larger ones. But that is like the theory of evolving from one species to another. It has never been proven and ain't science.
While I work at it, it is by God's grace that it happens. So it is best I ask him what, how and when before I start..
@Tazza - I tried HT on GC mould, hard alloy, didn't work well at all, ~1800 fps. I did get hard alloy to work PB @ 2100 fps and decent accuracy. This is out of BO carbine @ 100, pretty close to top end load ( made a mistake and loaded a couple hotter, bad result).
As for IR cooking, my calrod oven emits IR when just glowing red but it heats the air faster than IR cooking. I can buy IR LEDs and focus them on the bullet for curing, not a lot of heat generated. Possible eye damage problem and maybe a project for later?
Last edited by popper; 07-13-2021 at 07:24 PM.
Whatever!
Great information Avenger, thank you. The only .30 mould i have is for gas checks, and getting gas checks over here at the moment is a non event, they are listed on shop sites, but no stocks. Good to know they can be driven quite hard with a gas check, the accuracy isn't the same as jacketed, but way cheaper. .223 projectiles are still fairly cheap to buy jacketed, it was just to give more options.The only experience I have with no gas checks in the 308 is once I was asked a question much like yours by a guy thinking about using Hi Tek back a few years ago. I think his question was could he shoot full house loads with Hi Tek in his service rifle with no gas check. I loaded some up that didn't have gas checks but had the groove for one. Didn't have a way to measure speed back then but loads should have been around 2700 fps. They did leave a small amount of lead in the barrel. One of only two times I have had leading with Hi Tek. I answered his question. I'm not sure if the cause of the leading was gas cutting on the butt of the bullet. But thought that might have been the cause since those bullets were around 17BHN and that cut on the base for the gas check could have kept it from sealing. I was going to go back and visit this again with some 12-14BHN and slow them down to 2000 fps but just never got around to it. Don't have any experience with 223 but would think it would be a disaster to shoot 3000 fps with no gas check. Maybe 2000 fps? But you can do that with grease/wax lubes I'm told. Don't think anything over 14 BHN would work because of the gas cutting. But that is just an opinion. And those are like noses, everybody has one.
I understand the wish to not use gas checks. They are one more step that has to be done. You have to have at least one coat on the bullet before putting it through the sizing die. I have actually done so many on the 223 that my thumb was sore. Kind of like loading a bunch of loads by hand in handgun clips.
I don't use gas checks in the 45-70. Lead is usually about 12 BHN. But that is a totally different story than 308. I have a theory that smaller diameter bullets are harder to protect than larger ones. But that is like the theory of evolving from one species to another. It has never been proven and ain't science
Popper: Thanks for your info too, i think i just need to sit down and tinker to see what will work well enough for me, i can't expect jacketed performance, but i'm happy if it would hit paper at 200m
As for IR leds, i'm wondering if they would have enough output to heat the lead, usually IR leds are used for night vision, not to heat? As far as i understand it, you need to heat the metal to 180c for it to cure the hi-tek, just illuminating is not enough. I wonder if you can alter where the aclrod oven has it's elements, if they are closer to the projectiles, it may help transfer the heat faster? Even more smaller elements that can glow above the cast? You will always have a heating effect on the air, this will also change the rate that the projectiles heat. Jatz has spent a lot of time with his setup, different days, even a little wind changes how it cures. You'll need a PID setup, potentially multiple zones to ensure you're not getting hot spots. It sure will be an interesting project.
You could order a gas check maker. I have one for the 30 and about to get one for the 223 and 357. They will let you not rely on suppliers for your gas checks.
I think we would need to follow Popper's advice and get a 30 mold without the gas check groove maybe smooth side and maybe some 12-14 BHN lead. Then we could see if we could do 2600 without the gas check. What do you think?
I have done a lot of work since the targets I posted. Consistency is better now. And if I do all of the other things right that you need to do to have match ammo, my hand loads with cast will come very close to and probably equal Federal Gold Metal Match ammo. My cast loads will shoot average 1" groups at 100 yards which is about what I got with the Federal. When I started I just wanted to shoot cast that equaled the Remington ammo that I used for hunting. That happened quicker than I thought it was going to. Then I asked "I wonder how accurate I can get them". I started doing things like uniforming primer pockets, de burring flash holes and segregating cases by weight. Three very thin coats on the bullets and segregating them by weight. Bought Hornady's bullet run out correction tool. Even tried some neck turning on the cases. And trying to be minutely consistent with powder measurement and loading. And there is always some other thing you can try. Will drive you crazy if you let it. But that's a lot of work for just loading a few to hunt with. I can just throw together some for hunting that will get in the kill zone at 200 yards say 4-5". 200 yards is about the max I'll get to shoot where I hunt.
I've got some 10 BHN 308s cast and coated to experiment with to see if they are feasible. And some heavy hollow point Blackout bullets loaded in .308 that are a project. But right now I'm working with 9mm and 45-70. Working up an accurate load with the 9mm and just playing with the 45-70. Most of you guys have been working with 9mm for years. I bought my first 9mm gun just before the COVID thing. And I didn't know how lucky I was when I stocked up on all that powder and primers when they were on sale a few years back. Kept the loading press from gathering dust.
Last edited by Avenger442; 07-14-2021 at 03:12 PM.
While I work at it, it is by God's grace that it happens. So it is best I ask him what, how and when before I start..
That's pretty good grouping from cast. The ones that have been tested so far give about twice the spread of jacketed of the same weight and powder charge, which really isn't bad at all. Case prep was not done to your extent, just wet tumbled and sized, no weight separation to keep things as good as possible was done and decent results were had.
These cast were all 3 coats of 122 red, then sized. The ones with gas checks were the same, 3 coats then sized while seating the GC. I didn't see the point of coating once, seating the GC then coating twice more.
A GC maker is an option. I personally don't have a .223 or .308, a mad mate does that lets me use it for our comps. It's on my list of things i need to get when money allows.
I actually do have a 180 grain .30 mould that has no lube or gas check groves. They have been tested up to 1,400FPS in a black out without leading, i'm unsure on alloy hardness though. I will need to make some harder alloy to test if hardness is a benefit or not. The alloy i used was my pistol alloy that sits at about 12, if i try 16 it may do even better.
I also have a 230 grain lyman mould on loan that is made for gas checks, i just need to work out an alloy that will handle being driven at speed.
99% of our shooting is just punching paper at our local range, at no more than 200m. Some is only at 50 which for a rifle, is a waste of "good" ammo so cast is ideal. No sense burning up expensive jacketed stuff when it's so close.
Actually close to true. Larger base provides more FORCE for the same psi. Normally heavier bullet provides more inertia to start so 'bumping up' is easier.smaller diameter bullets are harder to protect than larger ones
IR LEDs are normally run for night vision but also run at low power to conserve battery life. They can be run with more light output. Your LED TV light is a non-white LED with phosphor over it to give white light, like a frosted bulb or fluorescent tube.
Whatever!
As many on this page have found, Hi-Tek does allow high velocity in rifles that otherwise did not like cast. The first rifle I used Hi-Tek in was my 375 Whelen and it shot well at 1,800fps using a lee plain base bullet but accuracy went south after that, yet my 357 Maximum drives a 158gr Lee PB bullet at 2,300fps wit great accuracy, I have driven the Lee 125 RF bullet to 2,700fps with no leading but no accuracy as we. I loaded up some Lee 170gr for my 308 and found that the Omark 44 I was going test them in would not accept the 310 sized bullets due to the tight chamber on that rifle so will have to re visit that test again with 308 sized cast now that I found some 30 cal checks. I have over the last several years convinced many nay sayers to the benefits of Hi-Tek. I get several people coming and asking me to coat some of their wonder bullets for them, one being an old mate who shot a 3'' 100mtr group with coated 303/25 bullets using open sights. But I am preaching to the converted. Regards Stephen
Wow! All I can say is Wow! I'm creeping up on higher velocities but nothing like you guys. I was dreaming of 2000 fps but that was just a dream. I've gotten good results on my M39 7.62x54R and my 303 Ross MK III but those are the only "higher" velocity rifles I've tried. I might up them a bit after seeing what you folks have accomplished but truthfully I'm thrilled to death to be where I'm at. I might get a custom mold made by NOE with a good crimp on gas check without a lube groove. I'll cast it in pure linotype and then put 4 or so coats of Hi-Tek on
I'd love to try pewter, just for the heck of it. I realize that casting in linotype or pewter kinda defeats the purpose of using Hi-Tek. That being you can use a softer lead and shoot at the same or higher velocity, but I like to use linotype (I have 700 lbs of it). I've never tried pewter though. Some people were talking about zinc but I'm staying away from that. Zinc has ruined more alloys for me than my mother-in-law has holidays.
Also, I really, really would like to try to speed things along with some sort of infrared setup. Anyone care to offer a suggestion on the hardware that would work?
[
I'm working on one mate that i shoot with to give hi-tek a go, he recently bought powder coat but said when he ran out, he'd have a chat. I offered to give him a bag of say 100 grams to give it a test to see how easy it is.
Not a lot of them cast at my club, there would be less than a hand full that i know that do. I do push it all i can on book face, there are more and more people that are giving it a go.
Jatz is the one to advise on IR heating, he has made a conveyor oven that uses IR heating elements and has shown to be really good. Possibly a bit big of a setup for you, but you can hopefully use the same sort of elements to do it.
As for using lino, if you get your paws on pure lead, mix it 50/50 with the lino and you get "bullet" lead. I have been casting for quite a while using recovered range scrap with 20% lino added and it works well for me. Sadly, being range scrap, i can't tell exactly what the mix is every batch to know if i'm adding too much or not enough lino to the pot. This mix works well for me and the people that buy them off me.
Tazza I don't know why the younger generation don't embrace casting as much as we old farts do. I find it therapeutic and all part of the shooting experience. Anyone can buy jacketed and get a good load right of the bat but to cast coat work out sizing and load data makes the sport what it is. We will still be shooting when jacketed bullets dry up. I find that Hi-Tek allows me to use much softer leads than the old grease lube did. There is no doubt that Hi-Tek takes more time than pan lubing or heaven forbit waiting decades for snail snot to dry. Regards Stephen
Every time i think i'm not an old fart, i do the math and realize i'm already there, or getting close to it. I'm 43, i would have started casting when i was young, in my early twenties. Back then, my life wasn't complicated with a wife that actually wants to spend time with me for some odd reason, casting was fun after i found what to use for lube instead of liquid alox. After that, i'd cast 20 odd thousand to cover myself and a mate for the year of shooting. A few years later, i get hold of a used master caster and start selling some of my cast, then i found hi-tek that was a lot cheaper than my old product and far less messy to apply. Master caster was automated, then i could cast more and use more hi-tek.
I never got a chance to test how well hi-tek performed vs the coating i was using. Hi-tek doesn't leave anywhere near as much residue on my hands when sizing and loading, hi-tek doesn't seem to produce the same dust as the other stuff did after application and cooking.
Your only a young Pup Tazza at 43 I will be 67 in a couple weeks and every joint tells me I am already there. I have to agree Joe did us proud with Hi-Tek. Regards Stephen
Posting Permissions
| BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
| BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
| BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
| C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
| HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
| PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
| LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
| GC | Gas Check |
Reply With Quote